MormonThink

Mormonthink.com is a site produced largely by members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints who are interested in the historical accuracy of our church and how it is being taught to its members and portrayed in the media.

We invite scholarly debate by critics, true-believers and anyone interested in Mormon history.

There is a lot of misinformation on the LDS church that is presented by both critics and defenders of the faith - particularly on the Internet. We present both sides fairly and let the reader decide. Who are we?

Gordon B. Hinckley:

"Well, we have nothing to hide. Our history is an open book. They may find what they are looking for, but the fact is the history of the church is clear and open and leads to faith and strength and virtues."
~ Dec. 25, 2005 interview with The Associated Press

 

 

What's New?

Grant Palmer to appear on local TV - 5/14/12

This week, Grant Palmer, author of “An Insider’s View of Mormon Origins,” and former CES teacher, will be appearing both this Thursday, May 17 and the following Thursday, May 24 on Doris Hansen's show called Polygamy: What Love Is This? Both programs will be on TV 20 from 8-9pm in Utah and parts of the states contiguous to Utah. This Thursday the subject will be "Sexual allegations against Joseph Smith" and the following Thursday will be on "Did Joseph Smith commit treason in his quest for political empire in 1844?" Both shows are live with call in questions.

 

Mormonism & the Internet presentation at Utah Valley University - 5/7/12

On March 29 & 30 of 2012, there was a live presentation held at the Utah Valley University entitled 'Mormonism and the Internet'. Guest speakers included LDS true believers, FAIR apologist Scott Gordon as well as non-traditional believers like Joanna Brooks and John Dehlin.

UPDATE: You can now watch the presentation on mormonstories

In reviewing the presentation, we noticed a significant error in the presentation made by Scott Gordon (President of FAIR):

In Scott's presentation at the 41:07 mark he has a slide that says "Translation with a Hat". He then lists 5 LDS sources that he claims states that Joseph translated the BOM with a hat.

I looked them up and 3 of the references do not even say the word "hat". They talk about the translation but do not say he put his face in a hat, which is the issue:

He lists:

Ensign Jan 97, pg 36 (NO HAT MENTIONED)

Ensign, Jul 93, pg 61 (HAT IS MENTIONED)

Ensign, Jan 88, pg 6-13 (NO HAT MENTIONED)

Ensign, Sep 77. pg 79 (HAT MENTIONED)

Friend, Sep 1974, 7 (NO HAT MENTIONED)

If FAIR wants to claim that the critics are wrong, when they say that the church isn't forthcoming in much of its history like the actual BOM translation process, and attempt to prove this by showing 5 examples taken from the church, they should at least be truthful in the sources they use as examples. Only twice was the word "hat" mentioned. Take in mind that the title of FAIR's presentation is 'Translation with a Hat'. Hat is the keyword here.

Looking at the two times the word "hat" was actually used in the articles discussing the BOM translation, one was 19 years ago and the other was 35 years ago. The church has of course had many opportunities to mention the "stone in the hat" method in the many articles and images used in its publications over the last 35 years, but to only mention hat twice and to have ever single image showing Joseph actually using the plates while translating with no image of his face in the hat is very misleading.

Good thing someone is checking FAIR's facts!

 

Related article: Cache Valley man researches why people leave the LDS Church

 

Study: Analytic thinking can decrease religious belief - 5/4/12

Interesting article - not on Mormonism but religion in general. We liked it just because it has the 'Thinker' sculpture on it. CNN article link

 

Change Lowers LDS Growth rate - 5/3/12

The Salt Lake Tribune corrected the errors we noted from the previous day on the Mormon church growth rate. 18% actual growth rate over 10 years instead of the reported 45%.The church attempts to smooth this over with "change how they count members" response which somehow seems insufficient. Also, it should be noted that 18% over 10 years is about 1.7% per year growth, which isn't all that much more than the number of children born to current members each year.

Change Lowers LDS Growth rate article

 

Mormon Church - Fasting Growing Religion? - 5/2/12

According to a Peggy Fletcher Stack article in the Salt Lake Tribune, the LDS Church has grown by 45% in the last decade or about 4.5% per year. What an utterly amazing growth rate! But it is completely false.

http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/54026798-78/lds-religious-church-largest.html.csp

The once-a-decade U.S. Religion Census, assembled by the Association of Statisticians of American Religious Bodies uses the self-reported numbers from 17 of the country’s largest religious groups to calculate growth rates. According to Peggy’s story the number of US members in 2000 was 4,224,026 and by 2010 it had grown to 6,144,582, an increase of 45%.

The trouble is that the 2000 figure is plain wrong. The 2001 LDS church almanac reports that there were 5,113,409 members in the US on December 31, 1999. According to Cumorah.com there were 4,336,000 US members in 1992. The figure the church provided must have been from about 1990.

The correct growth rate is about 20% during the last 10 years not 45%. The growth in church congregations during that period is also about 20%.

How could the statistical and membership department of the church get it so wrong? They have all the facts and they must know that the church is tanking in the US. It’s hard not to believe that there is deliberate falsifying of data to make the church look good.

Simon Southerton has brought this error to Peggy Stack's attention and she said "she will look into it".

Peggy didn't make a mistake. She reported exactly what the researchers told her. It is clear the researchers were fed incorrect information by the church membership department.

Further information:

Study of Mormon Church US Numbers: http://www.thearda.com/Denoms/D_1117.asp

Ex-Mormon Comment Board: http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,490639

Sacrament Meeting now replaced with 'Worship Service' on LDS homepage - 5/1/12

The LDS church continues to make subtle changes to their image presumably with the intent to make the church appear more mainstream. The latest is a minor change to their meetinghouse locator site (http://mormon.org/meetinghouse/). If you put in a zip code (I used 21229) it will pop up a meeting house that lists 'Worship Service' instead of 'Sacrament Meeting'. In practice, Latter-day Saints never use the term 'Worship Service' (except perhaps in some manuals) but always refer to it as 'Sacrament Meeting'. There isn't anything bizarre about the term 'Sacrament Meeting' but perhaps it may appear to foreign for some non-Mormons.

Richard Packham gave a talk called "The Everlasting Gospel in the Ever-changing Church" in which he lists many of the things that have changed in the church since he was baptized in 1941. It's very interesting to see how many things, both small and large, have changed within the LDS church since we joined the church.

 

The Anti-Mormon Moment - 4/19/12

The Salt Lake City Weekly has an article, "The Anti-Mormon Moment" which discusses how LDS critics capitalize on Romney's GOP nomination. Salt Lake City News Article

 

The length of the missing Book of Abraham papyri - 4/4/12

The following Dialogue article goes into extreme detail and complex calculations in order to accurately estimate the total length of the original papyri using the recovered papyri and markings on the papyri. This winding analysis indicates how big of a scroll the papyri were originally rolled into when they were put in with the mummies. This way they can estimate how much papyri can possibly be missing from the papyri as some apologists claim that the original scroll must have been very long and the papyri containing the text from which the BOA came from must be on the missing papyri.

Link to The Original Length of the Scroll of Hôr, from Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought, Winter, 2010

MT article

 

The Mormon Candidate - a BBC documentary - 3/30/12

The BBC just aired a documentary on Mitt Romney and Mormonism. It features several interviews with Apostle Jeffrey Holland and many others.

Available in its entirety on youtube here.

 

FAIR trying to silence the critics on the Internet - 3/23/12

A Deseret News Article by FAIR claims they want to correct the inaccuracies of Mormonism that are appearing in articles which are becoming more prevalent on the web. MormonThink supports this idea but we have different ideas of what this means.

The LDS organization FAIR (Foundation for Apologetic Information & Research) is making an organized effort to ensure that faith-promoting comments about the LDS church will drown out all other comments that are critical of the LDS church, regardless of whether or not they are true.

The article written by Mormon apologist Daniel Peterson, discusses his strategy of keeping people from learning the real hidden truths of Mormonism by trying to dominate the comment sections of Internet articles that discuss Mormonism. He claims they only want to correct misinformation. We at MormonThink totally agree with correcting misinformation and support a similar strategy by the MoreTruthFoundation started last year.

We agree that if someone says that Mormons don’t believe in Christ or are not Christian, we should correct that. Of course Mormons are Christian, although we have beliefs not shared by most other Christian churches such as the belief in the Book of Mormon as scripture.

HOWEVER, the problem is that FAIR wants to sugarcoat the answers and still keep the disturbing details of the church secret from the public. For example, go to their website called MormonVoices mentioned in the article. They discuss some of the issues so you can use information from their one-sided, incomplete, carefully-scripted commentary on selected issues that only support the church, even if they don’t really tell the true, complete story.

For example, look at their section on race. They do accurately provide recent statements that the modern Mormon church denounces racism. However, they don’t really address the concerns of those commenters that want to know why the blacks were denied the priesthood and the opportunity to have black families sealed in the LDS temples all the way up till 1978. Why on earth couldn’t a righteous black family be sealed to each other until 1978? Their site doesn’t even address that question, nor attempt to answer it.

The Mormonvoices site also totally disavows the belief that the ‘skin of blackness’ was a curse. They actually suggest the mark of Cain could have been a ‘tattoo’.  This is total nonsense as shown by the Book of Mormon scriptures themselves:

2 Nephi 5: 21
    And he had caused the cursing to come upon them, yea, even a sore cursing, because of their iniquity.  For behold, they had hardened their hearts against him, that they had become like unto a flint; wherefore, as they were white, and exceedingly fair and delightsome, that they might not be enticing unto my people, the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them.'

And then when the Lamanites repented their cursed black skin became white again:

3 Nephi 2:15
    And their curse was taken from them, and their skin became white like unto the Nephites."

So how could a tattoo be the curse?  This is sheer nonsense because FAIR doesn’t want nonmembers to know the details of how the Book of Mormon teaches that God cursed people with black skin when they were bad and made their skin white again when they were good.

The current LDS children’s book continues to promote this notion of equating dark-skin with a curse caused by wickedness:

 “Laman and Lemuel’s followers called themselves Lamanites. They became a dark-skinned people. God cursed them because of their wickedness.”

How many other christian churches currently teach these racial attitudes to the children in their congregations?

And of course they don’t mention any of the racist quotes made by prophets and apostles of the church that equate dark skin with the curse:

John Taylor, President of the Church
 "And after the flood we are told that the curse that had been pronounced upon Cain was continued through Ham's wife, as he had married a wife of that seed. And why did it pass through the flood? because it was necessary that the devil should have a representation upon the earth as well as God;..." Journal of Discourses, Vol. 22, page 304

President Brigham Young
 "If the White man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain (those with dark skin), the penalty, under the law of God, is death on the spot. This will always be so."

Apostle Mark E. Peterson
"If that Negro is faithful all his days, he can and will enter the Celestial Kingdom. He will go there as a servant, but he will get celestial glory.“       sermon to BYU students, 1954

To see the real, full story on Blacks & the Priesthood.

Of course FAIR would have you believe that the church leaders never said any of these things and many, many more.  And every other issue they advise members on such as polygamy, Book of Mormon historicity, Book of Abraham, etc. has the same lack of detail which is what they want to promote to the world in an effort to keep the disturbing truths of Mormonism from nonmembers and members.

Another point to make is that FAIR is not endorsed by the LDS church, and everything they say is merely the opinions of average every day members that the church won’t officially support. So why isn’t the church providing answers to these questions that are popping up all over the Internet? Why won’t they officially endorse FAIR’s answers as correct? They won’t stand behind FAIR, however they will hide behind them. It appears they want FAIR to defend the church because if it backfires, they can always say “they weren’t officially speaking for the church”.

We at MormonThink support the MoreTruthFoundation’s plan to spread the real, non-sugarcoated facts about the church. We do not want any critics to ever lie on these comments boards or to make the church’s history seem worse than it is, but we encourage everyone to not be shy in telling the real truth about the church and answering in detail the questions commenters really have about the church and its past. Since the church and FAIR won't tell the people what they really want to know about the church, it's up to us to speak the absolute truth. More information can be found at How To Help.

Again we will state that FAIR will only give a one-sided argument of the church. They never link to any critic’s site so you can’t see the full arguments that the critics make, which are much, much stronger than what FAIR purports them to be. FAIR only wants you to look at their point of view. However, MormonThink has over 300 links to FAIR, FARMS and LDS.org, etc so anyone can see exactly what the pro-side of any argument is in their own words as well as links to the best critics' sites so you can see those arguments also. Only by reading each side, from their own sites, can everyone get a complete viewpoint on every issue so then they can decide for themselves what makes the most sense.

 

New Mormon Video - 3/8/12

For those who have been wanting a good, modern, detailed, youtube video that explains the top problems of the Mormon Church, it has arrived. The following video introduces the Top 10 Problems of the Mormon Church. It's a long video at 1 hr and 21 min but it's easy to watch yet provides just enough detail to introduce each of 10 serious problems in the LDS church. It's not anti-Mormon at all yet plainly explains the top issues that critics have with the church. Think of it as a modern replacement for the Godmakers but something you might be more comfortable sharing with friends and family.

Link to the Top 10 Mormon Problems Explained

 

Complete translation of the Joseph Smith Papyri published - 3/5/12

The relationship between the Book of Abraham and the Joseph Smith Egyptian papyri continues to receive scholarly attention from the Oriental Institute of the University of Chicago. For a century now, professors and LDS students from this leading institute of Egyptian studies have analyzed and debated the papyri and its relationship to Joseph Smith's translation. The translation was called "The Book of Abraham" and incorporated into the Pearl of Great Price which became the fourth foundational scripture of the LDS church.

Considered one of the country's foremost Egyptian scholars, Dr. Robert Ritner is the latest University of Chicago Egyptologist to turn his attention to the papyri. His book, The Joseph Smith Egyptian Papyri: A Complete Edition, includes the first ever complete translation of the papyri.

A few excerpts from the Mormon Chronicles article:

What parallels are there between the Book of Abraham and the papyri?

(Ritner) The only parallels between the Book of Abraham and the papyri are found in the Facsimiles (Ptolemaic in date [352-30 BCE.]) that are specifically described and referenced within the text of the [Book of Abraham (BoA hereafter)] itself.  There is thus no possibility that the scenes, reworked from the papyri for the BoA, can be considered separate from the source of the BoA itself.  Obviously, the papyrus containing the scenes is equally linked.  The BoA just as clearly misunderstands these Facsimiles/Vignettes, with multiple confusions of standard imagery (for example: male vs.  female vs.  animal, specific deity images) and distorted interpretations of easily legible Egyptian text.

Some LDS scholars have suggested the source for the Book of Abraham may be on papyri that was lost or destroyed.  How plausible is this proposal?

(Ritner) For the reasons given above, this idea is not possible.  The various alternative theories for a "missing BoA text" are discussed in detail in my book, and all are shown to be false.  Parallel texts, standard papyrus document size (not whole rolls manufactured for commerce), measurements of rolling, a supposed (but false) reference to a lost text by the early scholar Seyffarth, and internal BoA remarks on the Facsimiles all indicate that the "Breathing Permit of Hor" (P JS I) is the source of the fictional account of Abraham.  The fictional nature of the tale is blatant not only from the Egyptian evidence, but also from Mesopotamian evidence, incorporated within this study for the first time.

How would you assess the work done on the Joseph Smith papyri by LDS  scholars?

(Ritner) My parallel presentations [I.E. translations by other scholars for comparison] and copious notes indicate the range of problems with the LDS apologetic translations, but I would distinguish the contributions of apologists from those of other LDS scholars, such as Stephen E. Thompson or Edward H.  Ashment, who have made very valuable and accurate studies of the Facsimiles. Perhaps the most remarkable feature of the apologetic writings is the degree to which those translations support and often parallel Egyptological ones, demonstrating that the Joseph Smith interpretations are indefensible.  Apologists can argue that the source text of BoA is lost, but they cannot deny the "translations" and "explanations" offered by Smith on the Facsimiles.  Instead, they ignore them while translating the hieroglyphs as properly as possible, acknowledging Smith's published translations to be wrong.  Michael D.  Rhodes' treatment of the P.  JS I Facsimiles [Facsimiles 1-3] is a classic example of this.

Link to Mormon Chronicles

 

Kinderhook Plates Podcast - 2/28/12

Mormon Expression just completed a podcast on the Kinderhook Plates. It gives a good introduction and summary of the issue. MormonThink made it's podcast debut on this episode as the compiler for MormonThink's Kinderhook Plates section was invited to be on the podcast as well. Please listen to Mormon Expression Podcast #189

Also of interest is that the apologists seemed to have recently reversed their position on the Kinderhook Plates.

Timeline:

1843 - 1980

Church supported that the KP were real as was Joseph's brief translation. This is verified by Pro-LDS historian Richard Bushman:

Church historians continued to insist on the authenticity of the Kinderhook plates until 1980 when an examination conducted by the Chicago Historical Society, possessor of one plate, proved it was a nineteenth-century creation.

Reference: Rough Stone Rolling, Richard Bushman, p 490.

1980 - 2011

LDS apologists acknowledged that the KP were a hoax but claimed Joseph never fell for it. They believed that Joseph's scribe, William Clayton, did not actually write what Joseph said. In the August, 1981 Ensign it simply states:

Where the ideas written by William Clayton originated is unknown. Ensign, August, 1981

2011 - present

On FAIR's website, they have reversed their position and now admit that Joseph did indeed start a translation of the Kinderhook Plates (just as the critics have been saying all along). However, they now believe that Joseph tried to do a secular translation of the KP after seeing a similarity between one of the symbols on the KP and one from the "Egyptian Alphabet & Grammar" by Joseph Smith (EAG).

However this creates an even greater problem for the Church as apologists have been trying to distance the prophet from the EAG for years. There isn't any Egyptologist in the world (not even LDS ones) that believe that any of of the Egyptian Alphabet & Grammar by Joseph Smith is anything but nonsense and in no way accurate at all in deciphering what Egyptian hieroglyphics mean.

For more on the Kinderhook Plates

 

Grant Palmer Mormon Stories podcast - 2/26/12

In this episode Grant Palmer, author of “An Insider’s View of Mormon Origins,” returns to Mormon Stories to discuss: Sexual allegations made against Joseph Smith during his early years The story of William and Jane Law, and An update on Grant’s resignation from the LDS church Podcasts 326-329

 

Interpreting and Interrupting Polygamy - 2/14/12

The essay linked below is a welcome addition to MormonThink's section on polygamy. It was written by two active, believing members of the LDS Church in hopes that this manuscript will help others, through sound and truthful understandings, escape the past LDS practice of polygamy. It is not "anti-Mormon" at all yet lays out the facts openly without bias. There are also many new, interesting things in the essay that we've never seen elsewhere.

Interpreting and Interrupting Polygamy:  “A Way for Your Escape” carefully documents some twenty-four books, fifty articles, and other materials published since 1977 on LDS polygamy.  Applicable scriptures, commentaries, and other older books and historical records (published before 1977) are also referenced and interwoven with these voluminous modern contributions (including the Internet) so that students of this subject can be well informed and up-to-date.  This work offers readers quick and easy access as a summary to over ten thousand pages of published and documented modern research by historians and scholars relative to this subject; and it does so with a unique focus on the origins of polygamy.  This means that hundreds of thousands of tedious man-hours in historical and scholarly research can be accessed by individuals in this 130-page synopsis. 

One recent reader reported:  “Fascinating, and the best, most logical and well thought out work I have read yet on the subject.”  She and her husband had been deeply troubled over this subject for many years.  Upon reading an early draft of this research, a relative exclaimed:  “I want to keep a copy of this for my own sanity!”

Curtis Henderson
Jade Henderson

Link to: Interpreting and Interrupting Polygamy

 

Number of faithful Mormons rapidly declining - 2/1/12

From ABC 4 News in Salt Lake City (some excerpts from the article):

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is losing a record number of its membership. A new report quotes an LDS general authority who said more members are falling away today than any time in the past 175 years.

At meetings like General Conference, Utahns may be used to seeing members of the LDS Church show up in record numbers. But according to a recent Reuters article citing LDS General Authority Marlin K. Jensen, for the church as a whole, the record in going in a different direction.

Elder Jensen told the news outlet times have changed, and "attrition has accelerated in the last five or 10 years." Some church members ABC 4 talked to said they see the faithful leaving.

So how bad is it getting? Right now there are more than 14 million members of the church worldwide. But according to the article, sociologists estimate active membership may as few as only five million.

Elder Jensen told Reuters that's the biggest departure since before the days of Brigham Young.

To read article: ABC 4 News

 

Mormons tackling tough questions in their history - 1/31/12

From the Salt Lake Tribune:

An LDS student surfs the Internet for a school assignment and discovers that Mormon founder Joseph Smith had multiple wives, even marrying a 14-year-old.

A returned LDS missionary, preparing a Sunday school lesson, comes across a website alleging that the Book of Mormon was plagiarized from a novel.

Surprised by what they find so easily online, more and more members of the Utah-based Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints are encountering crises of faith. Some even leave the fold and, feeling betrayed, join the ranks of Mormon opponents.

It’s a growing problem, acknowledges LDS general authority Marlin Jensen, the faith’s outgoing church historian, and one Mormon leaders are working to confront.

To read the whole article: Salt Lake Tribune

 

Church historian Elder Jensen speaks publicly on members leaving the church - 1/18/12

Church historian, Elder Marlin Jensen held a Q&A session at Utah State University on January 18, 2012. Elder Jensen has been a general authority of the church since 1989. He currently is a member of the First Quorum of the Seventy. Since 2005, he also has been the Church Historian and Recorder of the church.

A questioner asked, “Has the church seen the effects of Google on membership? It seems like the people who I talk to about church history are people who find out and leave quickly. Is the church aware of that problem? What about the people who are already leaving in droves?”

Jensen's response:

“The fifteen men really do know, and they really care. And they realize that maybe since Kirtland, we never have had a period of, I’ll call it apostasy, like we’re having right now; largely over these issues. We do have another initiative that we have called, “Answers to Gospel Questions”. We are trying to figure out exactly what channels to deliver it in and exactly what format to put it in. But we want to have a place where people can go. We have hired someone that’s in charge of search engine optimization. We realize that people get their information basically from Google. They don’t come to LDS.org. If they get there, it’s through Google. So, we are trying to create an offering that will address these issues and be available for the public at large and to the church leaders, because many of them don’t have answers either. It can be very disappointing to church members. And, for people who are losing their faith, or who have lost it, we hope to regain to the church.”

Note: The Simple Mormon Spectator, that wrote the synopsis of the session, has since removed it from his blog. HOWEVER, the audio is still available here.

 

Did Joseph Smith Commit Treason? - 1/18/12

Some historians claim that Joseph Smith may have committed treason against the United States in 1844. Former CES educator Grant H. Palmer explains why some people believe that and what the facts really are: Joseph Smith - 1844

 

Mormons Weigh In On Beliefs, Presidential Race In Pew Survey - 1/18/12

Huffington Post article:

A survey released Wednesday that asks Mormons what they think of themselves sheds new light on how accurate America's picture of one of the country's fastest-growing religions may be. The Pew Forum on Religion and Public Life's extensive study, conducted in the fall, asked Mormons questions on issues ranging from how they interpret their religion to their views on homosexuality, marriage, politics and Mormons' place in America.

Read Full Story

READ A BLOG COMPARING THE SURVEYS:

THE METHODOLOGY OF MANIPULATION: STATISTICS IN PLAY

 

Why WIlliam and Jane Law left the LDS Church in 1844 - 1/6/12

Many members don't know much about William Law and his wife Jane. Brother Law served in the First Presidency of the church from 1841 to 1844. Former CES educator Grant H. Palmer wrote an interesting article about why Brother Law and his wife ended up leaving the LDS faith. William Law article

 

Sexual Allegations Against Joseph Smith - 12/22/11

It is commonly known among LDS members that Joseph Smith Jr. practiced polygamy, beginning with his first documented polygamist marriage to Louisa Beaman on 5 April 1841.However, prior to these marriages, it is generally unknown that he was accused of illicit sexual conduct with six young women from 1829 -1835. Former CES educator Grant H. Palmer provides a brief synopsis of each of these alleged incidents: allegations

 

Doctrine & Covenants section added - 12/15/11

The Doctrine & Covenants is unique Mormon scripture in that it is not based on ancient documents. The Book of Mormon was translated from ancient Nephite writings 2,000 years old. The Book of Abraham claims to be translated from Abraham's writings 4,000 years old. Even the Book of Moses, although not based on a translation of a physical document, is still an amalgamation of the "Vision of Moses" recording God's dealings with Moses thousands of years ago.

If the gospel was indeed restored though Joseph Smith, then it stands to reason that God would continue to give revelation to be recorded as sacred scripture in this last dispensation, as was done in the others. That's essentially what the D&C is - God's dealings with his chosen people in this period of time.

Please read this section to learn about the exciting origin of the Doctrine & Covenants.

 

Non-Mormon archeologist discusses Book of Mormon archeology - 12/7/11

LDS apologists often suggest that Book of Mormon archeology is ignored by the general scientific community citing that non-Mormon archeologists don't look for evidence of the Book of Mormon and therefore don't find any evidence. There is a non-Mormon archeologist, Dr. Michael Coe who has been writing about Book of Mormon archeology since he was asked to write an article on the subject for Dialogue Magazine in 1973.

Dr. Michael Coe is the Charles J. MacCurdy professor emeritus of Anthropology at Yale University and curator emeritus of the Division of Anthropology at the school’s Peabody Museum of Natural History. He is an expert on the Maya, who inhabited the same part of Mexico and Central American where Mormon scholars say the events of the Book of Mormon took place.

Dr. Coe did a fascinating 3-part podcast interview with John Dehlin for mormonstories. In this interview, Coe discusses the challenges facing Mormon archaeologists attempting to prove the historical truth of their central scripture and his own views on Joseph Smith. Michael Coe podcast interview. More on Michael Coe.

 

Comparative polling suggests public shift in comfort with a Mormon president - 11/10/11

Deseret News article:

A new national public opinion poll suggests that a significant shift may be taking place among Americans relative to their comfort with seeing a Mormon in the White House.

And as far as backers of Mitt Romney and Jon Huntsman Jr. are concerned, it's not a good shift.

According to a new public opinion poll released early Tuesday by the Public Religion Research Institute, "a majority of voters (53 percent) said they were somewhat or very comfortable with a Mormon president, while 42 percent said a Mormon president would make them somewhat or very uncomfortable," wrote Dan Merica for CNN.

Read Full Story

 

LDS apologist and critic debate the Book of Mormon - 9/12/11

Famed LDS apologist Rodney Meldrum is debating prominent critic Richard Packham on the question of whether or not the Book of Mormon is historical fact or inspired fiction.

Rodney Meldrum, who has made a name for himself by touring the country giving lectures on how the Book of Mormon took place in North America, supports the traditional view, that has been supported by the church and most members, that the BOM took place primarily in North America. Rodney is president of the Foundation for Indigenous Research and Mormonism (FIRM). Rodney's website.

Richard Packham is one of the most knowledgeable critics of Mormonism. Richard is a former Mormon and was the first president of the Ex-Mormon Foundation. Richard has a vast knowledge of languages and linguistics. That, coupled with his knowledge of the LDS Church and it's detailed history, gives Richard perhaps a unique perspective of the linguistic problems in Mormonism that very few members know the extent of. Richard's Home Page.

The debate is held on this Internet Public Square. Comments can be made here.

 

Presidential candidate Jon Huntsman on the LDS Priesthood Ban - 8/22/11

ABC News asked Mormon presidential candidate, John Huntsman about the priesthood ban and Huntsman responded very candidly:

TAPPER: Do you think it's fair for reporters or members of the public to ask candidates about their faith?

HUNTSMAN:  I think it's fair, but it doesn't matter what I think about it, reporters are going to ask regardless.

TAPPER: Well, OK.  Here I go then.

You're Mormon. Until you were 18, your church had racist rules. It would not allow anyone with African ancestry to become a priest and blacks were also banned from participating in certain Mormon ordinances, such as temple marriages. Then the leadership of the church, in 1978, announced something along the lines of that God had changed his mind or the rules had changed because of revelation. You seem to be a thinking man. What was it like to go through this as a -- as a young man, your church having racist rules and then all of a sudden, God says no more?

HUNTSMAN: I think it was wrong, plain and simple. I think it was wrong. I think it was something that divided people, divided friends and maybe even divided families. I believe they -- they saw the errors of their way and they made a policy change. And I think they're much better because of it.

The interview is available at ABCnews.com

 

The second Grant Palmer interview by Jason Wallace from May 25 is available online. - 8/10/11

 

Lyndon Lamborn newspaper article - 7/6/11

The East Valley Tribune Newspaper revisits Lyndon Lamborn nearly four years after his excommunication from the LDS Church. Article: "Revisiting the LDS excommunication of Lyndon Lamborn who talked too much"

 

In this Mormon moment, LDS Church history blooms. - 6/28/11

Please read this interesting article on Mormonism quoting extensively from LDS historian Richard Bushman. Utah News

 

Grant Palmer interviewed on live TV - 5/27/11

LDS author Grant Palmer was interviewed Wed. May 18 and Wed. May 25 on live TV by Jason Wallace from 8-9 PM, on Channel 20 (a Comcast station in the greater Salt Lake area). Wed May 18, the focus was on An Insider's View of Mormon Origins and the future of Mormonism. On Wed May 25, the focus was on comparing the Mormon Jesus with the New Testament Jesus, especially their personality, behavior, attitudes and what their doctrinal emphasis is. The format each week was an interview for 30 minutes followed by questions from callers.

First Interview available online Part 1.

Second Interview available online Part 2.

 

Grant Palmer Podcast - 4/28/11

One of our favorite LDS authors, Grant Palmer just did an interview with Mormon Expressions. John Larsen talks with former Church Educational System Institute Director, teacher, and author about his journey within Mormonism and his view of Jesus. Please listen this very interesting podcast. Mormon Expression podcast # 130.

 

Announcing the 2010 Brodie Winners - 2/28/11

The 2010 Brodie Winners have been announced. We're proud to say that MormonThink won for Best Static LDS-Interest Site. Some of our other favorites won awards as well such as:

Best New Blog: Mormon Expression Blogs

Best Discussion Forum: Post-Mormon.org

Best Bridge-Building: John Dehlin's "Mormon Stories"

There's many other awards and great sites and blogs mentioned that are worth checking out. The complete list of winners is here: 2010 Brodie Winners

 

'South Park' creators' Mormon musical has some Mormons excited, others suspicious - 1/28/11

Fox News and LDS Living Magazine ran this article on the upcoming and controversial Book of Mormon Broadway Musical. Excerpt:

No one has seen Trey Parker and Matt Stone’s musical comedy “The Book of Mormon” yet. It doesn’t start previews on Broadway until the end of February. But early chatter from the Mormon community is already divided between those eager to see the show, and a more conservative group who views the play as another instance of persecution against their faith.

Full article

The LDS Church responded with this statement:

The production may attempt to entertain audiences for an evening, but the Book of Mormon as a volume of scripture will change people's lives forever by bringing them closer to Christ.

 

Relief Society of Ancient Origin - 1/3/11

The Visiting Teaching Message of the January 2011 Ensign said the following:

Eliza R. Snow recalled the Prophet Joseph Smith teaching that "although the name [Relief Society] may be of modern date, the institution is of ancient origin 1. 1 (1. Eliza R. Snow, "Female Relief Society," Deseret News, Apr. 22, 1868, 81.)

From the Salt Lake Tribune (12/17/10):

The LDS Church has made subtle — but significant — changes to chapter headings in its online version of the faith’s signature scripture, The Book of Mormon, toning down some earlier racial allusions.

The words “skin of blackness” were removed from the introductory italicized summary in 2 Nephi, Chapter 5, in describing the “curse” God put on disbelieving Lamanites.

Deeper into the volume, in Mormon, Chapter 5, the heading changes from calling Lamanites “a dark, filthy, and loathsome people” to “because of their unbelief, the Lamanites will be scattered, and the Spirit will cease to strive with them.”

In both cases, the text itself remains unchanged.

To read the complete article - Salt Lake Tribune

 

Five recommended sources to use to study the Book of Abraham - 10/6/10

We have added one resource to our list of starting places we recommend truthseekers use to obtain a basic, balanced understanding of the Book of Abraham issues. We currently had four sources (2 critical and 2 favorable to the church). We have added a Mormon Expression podcast as a fairly neutral addition to our list.

The folks at MormonExpression did an excellent podcast introducing the Book of Abraham issues. It is podcast #4 . In this episode the panel is joined by Mormon Scholar Chris Smith to discuss the issues surrounding the Book of Abraham. Topics discussed include the 19th century understand of Egyptology, Reformed Egyptian, the Egyptian and Hebrew languages, The Catalyst Theory, the Missing Papyri Theory, the Anthon Transcript, the Kirtland Egyptian Papers and the theories of John Gee and Hugh Nibley. Introduction to issues surrounding the Book of Abraham

To recap our list of recommended sources to use to start a study of the Book of Abraham:

1. Video: 'The Lost Book of Abraham - examining a remarkable Mormon Claim'. 

2. Book:  By His Own Hand Upon Papyrus by Charles Larson.

3. Ensign Article:  Michael Rhodes article in The Ensign called 'Why doesn't the translation of the Egyptian papyri found in 1967 match the text of the Book of Abraham in the Pearl of Great Price?' 

4. LDS Web site:  The Neal A. Maxwell Institute of Religious Scholarship, formerly known as the Foundation for Ancient Research and Mormon Studies (FARMS). 

5. Mormon Expression Podcast: Podcast #4, Introduction to issues surrounding the Book of Abraham

 

Lucy Mack Smith's account of the Lost 116 Pages - 9/8/10

We've added this account by Lucy Mack Smith (Joseph's mother) regarding the lost 116 pages of the Book of Mormon and what she thinks happened to them.

 

MormonStories Podcast on Tithing and LDS Corporate workings - 8/27/10

In John Dehlin's MormonStories podcast, there is a very interesting, informative podcast done by Daymon Smith Ph.D, an active, believing Mormon Anthropologist and the author of a new book called: The Book of Mammon: A Book About A Book About The Corporation That Owns The Mormons.  The podcast is interesting and provides many insights not available to the average member from faithful members that actually worked in the Church headquarters.

It is podcast # 150 - The LDS Church as a Corporation and the Corporation as a Church. LINK

 

The Sun gets its light from Kolob - 5/19/10

LDS apologists respond to the critic's charge about the Book of Abraham criticism regarding how the Sun can borrow its light from Kolob as stated in the BOA. The FAIR website goes into some detail explaining why the critic's complaint is a narrow interpretation of what Joseph said and concludes with:

"Until someone can make a convincing case that their interpretation of these things is the only reasonable one, any faith-promoting proof from Abraham’s astronomy is a flimsy house of cards and any faith-destroying attack on some straw-man interpretation is laughable. "

Reference: http://en.fairmormon.org/Book_of_Abraham/Astronomy/Kolob-Sun

 

Critic's Response: Let's review again what exactly Joseph said:

Is called in Egyptian Enish-go-on-dosh; this is one of the governing planets also, and is said by the Egyptians to be the Sun, and to borrow its light from Kolob through the medium of Kae-e-vanrash, which is the grand Key, or, in other words, the governing power, which governs fifteen other fixed planets or stars, as also Floeese or the Moon, the Earth and the Sun in their annual revolutions. This planet receives its power through the medium of Kli-flos-is-es, or Hah-ko-kau-beam, the stars represented by numbers 22 and 23, receiving light from the revolutions of Kolob." (Book of Abraham, Facsimile 2, Figure #5 explanation.)

FAIR suggests that the "light" mentioned in the Book of Abraham may refer to the light of Christ. Does this make any sense in the context of the above paragraph. Why would the Sun borrow the 'light of Christ' from a star known as Kolob. Doesn't it make more sense that someone might believe that a star would be borrow its light, meaning the sunlight that shines from it, from another star? The primary benefit that a star provides to people is to provide light, meaning sunlight and has nothing to do with the light of Christ.

ALSO, the idea that our star got it's light and power from another star was a theory known in Joseph's time.  Joseph likely just believed what the scientists of his day believed and incorporated that into scripture.  Reference:  An Insider's View of Mormon Origins, Grant Palmer, chapter 1.

We leave it to the reader, to decide who makes more sense, the FAIR apologists or critics.

 

America Before Columbus - 4/29/10

National Geographic recently rebroadcast a documentary called 'America before Columbus'. This documentary did not mention Mormons at all but gives remarkable insights to the lands mentioned in the Book of Mormon. An overview of the show from their website:

"History books traditionally depict the pre-Columbus Americas as a pristine wilderness where small native villages lived in harmony with nature. But scientific evidence tells a very different story: When Columbus stepped ashore in 1492, millions of people were already living there. America wasn't exactly a "New World," but a very old one whose inhabitants had built a vast infrastructure of cities, orchards, canals and causeways."

Based on their overview of the show, we initially thought this may actually support the Book of Mormon, however the documentary goes into great detail discussing all the new animals and plants that were introduced to the Americas by the Europeans starting in 1492. These include modern-day horses, cattle, oxen, goats, sheep, pigs, European honeybees, wheat and barley.

However, according to the Book of Mormon, all of these animals and plants existed in abundance in the Americas when the Nephites and Lamanites lived as they were brought there by Lehi and his family around 600 B.C. How can scientists say that none of these animals and plants existed in America when the scriptures clearly report they did?

The National Geographic Society is one of the most respected scientific organizations in the world. Their goal is to educate people about our planet, its history and help protect it for future generations. We ask the viewer of this documentary to honestly think about which is more likely - all of the evidence of these animals and plants vanished and scientists are completely mistaken about what was in the Americas or perhaps the Book of Mormon is not historical?

 

 

Book of Mormon geography stirring controversy - Salt Lake Tribune article - 3/31/10

 

Response in the tithing section - 3/10/10

A true believer responds to the tithing section. A critic responds to him.

 

Family Home Evening Tithing Lesson - 3/5/10

Read this lesson from the church's website on tithing. The church lesson specifically says that tithing should be paid on "all our interest or increase, before anything else is taken out". The lesson has an activity game where a family shows all the income and bills it has in a month and the family does not have enough money to pay it's bills. The church's directive is "Point out that you pay tithing first, and then you pay a portion of what you owe on each other bill". Also read how the critics respond to this. Family Home Evening Tithing Lesson

 

Request for Financial Transparency in the LDS Church Petition - 3/4/10

An online petition has been started to request that the LDS Church disclose its financial information the way that many other churches do. http://www.petitiononline.com/2915spar/petition.html

 

Waiting for My Testimony - Church Magazine article - 2/11/10

Read the story of how one faithful member gained her testimony of the Book of Mormon. Reprinted from the Feb, 2010 New Era magazine. Also read how the critics respond to her testimony. Waiting for My Testimony.

 

New MormonStories Podcasts - 2/9/10

Mormon Stories is a collection of podcasts done by John Dehlin. He initially retired the series in 2007 but started doing the podcasts again at the end of 2009. The contributors to MormonThink have always enjoyed listening to the many interesting and unbiased interviews done on Mormon Stories about various aspects of Mormonism. Mormonstories

Another excellent neutral Mormon podcast site that covers a variety of interesting topics is Mormon Expression.

 

Mormon Temple Petition - 2/3/10

MormonThink would like to recognize the Temple Wedding Petition that is spreading across the globe. The petition is to allow for the option of having a civil ceremony outside of the temple without penalty to the couple.

http://www.templeweddingpetition.org/

Jean Bodie and Michelle Spencer discuss their project, The Temple Wedding Petition in a recent podcast on Mormon Expression: episode 34 temple petition

Our comment: As other countries (like England) require a civil ceremony prior to any religious ceremony, we don't see why the church can't allow its members to have a civil ceremony first where everyone can be invited. It's been our observation that whenever the church moves a little towards mainstream, that this makes the church look more appealing to non-members as well as members. The petition is done in a respectful way and we hope the church will one day adopt this practice.

 

Mormon documentary - Washington Post article - 2/1/10

 

Elder Hafen's talk - 'Focus on the known of the restoration' - 1/26/10

The latest newsworthy LDS counsel comes from Elder Hafen's latest talk where he tells LDS to "Look at the restoration's content, don't get lost in the sometimes unclear details and footnotes". Elder Hafen related his remarks specifically to anti-Mormon literature found on the Internet, and stated that too many people of faith let initial curiosity give way to feelings of dismay and betrayal when they come across unfamiliar arguments against the church.

Faithful questioning is a hallmark of a searching soul, he said, but claims found in anti-Mormon literature are no reason to abandon one's testimony, especially because many of the issue-taking and arguments out there have already been addressed by Mormon scholars and leaders. That's one problem with the otherwise wonderful information tool that the Internet is.

"Readers have no way of knowing which critical claims have already been discredited, and the anti-Mormon sponsors are certainly not going to tell them right there on the site," he said.

Elder Hafen said there is much discussion out there regarding the methods through which Joseph Smith translated ancient scripture such as the Book of Mormon, the Pearl of Great Price and the Bible. That's all fine and good so long as the questioner is mainly focused on the works themselves, the great mountains of eternal knowledge they contain, and what that knowledge means in the lives of God's children rather than on the specifics of the revelatory process.

"How (Joseph Smith) received it doesn't ultimately matter to us very much," he said.

MormonThink's comment: Most LDS members have no idea what Hafen is talking about regarding the translation of the scriptures he mentions, BUT most members will totally agree with what he says regardless. If the church really doesn't think there are problems with the translation process, then why don't they stop publishing erroneous pictures of Joseph using the plates to translate with and start depicting Joseph putting his face in a hat with a common stone he found while digging a well?

Hafen's dismissal of any possible challenge to the church, with a waive of his hand, perhaps shows that he doesn't really know the strength of the critics' arguments. Hafen's description of objectively looking at church issues as "scouring the rough for golf balls" is his attempt to trivialize studying anything that isn't from a faithful source. He attempts to discredit every critic so no faithful member will even consider that they might have valid information.

Hafen doesn't acknowledge that the most damaging criticism about the church actually comes from the church itself such as the church's own history books, the Journal of Discourses, the Book of Mormon itself, church teachings, prophet's diaries, etc.

Also, if these issues really have been discredited, then why doesn't the church simply list them on some church-endorsed website as official responses so members can know what the official responses are?

The fact is that most of the issues do not really have good, easy answers like why Joseph married 11 women that already had husbands or why the translations of the Book of Abraham facsimiles and papyri by modern-day Egyptologists don't match Joseph's translations.

Obviously the church is realizing how devastating the Internet is to their claims of a divine restoration and they are trying to do damage control. Hopefully the members reading Hafen's talk will be inspired to see what exactly these issues are that he's referring to and investigate them for themselves using a variety of sources.

 

Word of Wisdom section added - 1/20/10

There are likely many things most Latter-day Saints don't know about the origins of the famous health code revealed to the church by Joseph Smith. Please check out the Word of Wisdom section featuring an essay by author James Whitefield.

 

David Whitmer describes the angel - 12/1/09

John Murphy interviewed Book of Mormon witness David Whitmer in June, 1880.

When asked in 1880 for a description of the angel who showed him the plates, Whitmer replied that the angel "had no appearance or shape." Asked by the interviewer how he then could bear testimony that he had seen and heard an angel, Whitmer replied, "Have you never had impressions?" To which the interviewer responded, "Then you had impressions as the Quaker when the spirit moves, or as a good Methodist in giving a happy experience, a feeling?" "Just so," replied Whitmer. Whitmer interview with John Murphy, June 1880, in EMD5: 63.

Read more about David Whitmer's testimony.

 

Kinderhook Plates update - 12/1/09

Readers ask new questions on the Kinderhook Plates translated by Joseph Smith in 1843.

 

Salt Lake Mall now estimated at $3 Billion cost - 11/10/09

The construction of the LDS Church mall in SLC is now estimated to be at $3 Billion. See the Deseret News article stating the new estimated cost.. For more on the mall.

 

Martin Harris and the Stone Box - 11/10/09

Read the exciting account of the stone box Martin Harris discovered.

 

A linguist looks at Mormonism - 11/10/09

The are significant linguistic problems in the LDS scriptures, especially with the Book of Mormon. Richard Packham is one of the most knowledgeable critics of the LDS Church. He has a vast knowledge of languages and linguistics. That, coupled with his knowledge of the LDS Church and it's detailed history, gives Richard perhaps a unique perspective of the linguistic problems in Mormonism that very few members know the extent of.

 

FAIR continues the attack on MormonThink - 10/28/09

FAIR continues to bash MormonThink (MT) after MT responded to FAIR’s review of MT.  This time, it has focused on one specific topic involving the Urim & Thummim - specifically regarding why the Urim & Thummim was not returned to Joseph along with the plates after the 116 pages were lost. The interesting back and forth analysis is found here: http://www.mormonthink.com/fairseerstones.htm

 

Elder Holland's talk on the Book of Mormon - 10/15/09

Elder Holland's recent General Conference talk on believing in the Book of Mormon has generated a lot of buzz amongst both the faithful and critics of the Church. The best review of this talk we've found is by one of our favorite blogs, Equality Time. An LDS Gem: Elder Holland's Opus

 

FAIR conference discusses MormonThink and StayLDS.com - 10/5/09

The LDS Church Hunting Preserves - Deseret News - 9/16/09

FAIR reviews MormonThink - 8/26/09

How do prophets receive revelation? - 8/26/09

LDS Egyptologist John Gee downplaying Book of Abraham as scripture - 8/14/09

Simon Southerton on FAIR apologetics - 8/14/09

Moroni Visitation painting in August 2009 Ensign - 8/14/09