MormonThink

Mormonthink.com is a site produced by members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints who are concerned about the historical accuracy of our church and how it is being taught to its members and portrayed in the media.

There is a lot of misinformation on the LDS church that is presented by both critics and defenders of the faith - particularly on the Internet. We present both sides fairly and let the reader decide. Who are we?

Gordon B. Hinckley:

"Well, we have nothing to hide. Our history is an open book. They may find what they are looking for, but the fact is the history of the church is clear and open and leads to faith and strength and virtues."
~ Dec. 25, 2005 interview with The Associated Press

 

What's New?

2010 Annual Exmormon Foundation Conference

"PERCEPTIONS: Patriarchy, Politics, and Personal Peace"

October 15-17, 2010

ExmormonFoundation.org

The Exmormon Foundation has scheduled their annual conference in SLC for 2010. Many of the MormonThink writers have been attending the conferences for several years. Even though most of us are still active LDS Church members, we have always been very welcomed there and have found the conferences very enjoyable, friendly, entertaining and informative. Please visit their website for details.

 

The Sun gets its light from Kolob - 5/19/10

LDS apologists respond to the critic's charge about the Book of Abraham criticism regarding how the Sun can borrow its light from Kolob as stated in the BOA. The FAIR website goes into some detail explaining why the critic's complaint is a narrow interpretation of what Joseph said and concludes with:

"Until someone can make a convincing case that their interpretation of these things is the only reasonable one, any faith-promoting proof from Abraham’s astronomy is a flimsy house of cards and any faith-destroying attack on some straw-man interpretation is laughable. "

Reference: http://en.fairmormon.org/Book_of_Abraham/Astronomy/Kolob-Sun

 

Critic's Response: Let's review again what exactly Joseph said:

Is called in Egyptian Enish-go-on-dosh; this is one of the governing planets also, and is said by the Egyptians to be the Sun, and to borrow its light from Kolob through the medium of Kae-e-vanrash, which is the grand Key, or, in other words, the governing power, which governs fifteen other fixed planets or stars, as also Floeese or the Moon, the Earth and the Sun in their annual revolutions. This planet receives its power through the medium of Kli-flos-is-es, or Hah-ko-kau-beam, the stars represented by numbers 22 and 23, receiving light from the revolutions of Kolob." (Book of Abraham, Facsimile 2, Figure #5 explanation.)

FAIR suggests that the "light" mentioned in the Book of Abraham may refer to the light of Christ. Does this make any sense in the context of the above paragraph. Why would the Sun borrow the 'light of Christ' from a star known as Kolob. Doesn't it make more sense that someone might believe that a star would be borrow its light, meaning the sunlight that shines from it, from another star? The primary benefit that a star provides to people is to provide light, meaning sunlight and has nothing to do with the light of Christ.

ALSO, the idea that our star got it's light and power from another star was a theory known in Joseph's time.  Joseph likely just believed what the scientists of his day believed and incorporated that into scripture.  Reference:  An Insider's View of Mormon Origins, Grant Palmer, chapter 1.

We leave it to the reader, to decide who makes more sense, the FAIR apologists or critics.

 

America Before Columbus - 4/29/10

National Geographic recently rebroadcast a documentary called 'America before Columbus'. This documentary did not mention Mormons at all but gives remarkable insights to the lands mentioned in the Book of Mormon. An overview of the show from their website:

"History books traditionally depict the pre-Columbus Americas as a pristine wilderness where small native villages lived in harmony with nature. But scientific evidence tells a very different story: When Columbus stepped ashore in 1492, millions of people were already living there. America wasn't exactly a "New World," but a very old one whose inhabitants had built a vast infrastructure of cities, orchards, canals and causeways."

Based on their overview of the show, we initially thought this may actually support the Book of Mormon, however the documentary goes into great detail discussing all the new animals and plants that were introduced to the Americas by the Europeans starting in 1492. These include modern-day horses, cattle, oxen, goats, sheep, pigs, European honeybees, wheat and barley.

However, according to the Book of Mormon, all of these animals and plants existed in abundance in the Americas when the Nephites and Lamanites lived as they were brought there by Lehi and his family around 600 B.C. How can scientists say that none of these animals and plants existed in America when the scriptures clearly report they did?

The National Geographic Society is one of the most respected scientific organizations in the world. Their goal is to educate people about our planet, its history and help protect it for future generations. We ask the viewer of this documentary to honestly think about which is more likely - all of the evidence of these animals and plants vanished and scientists are completely mistaken about what was in the Americas or perhaps the Book of Mormon is not historical?

 

 

Book of Mormon musical on Broadway. - 4/14/10

John Dehlin's Top 10 Reasons Why This Mormon is Excited About the South Park “Book of Mormon” Broadway Musical

 

Book of Mormon geography stirring controversy - Salt Lake Tribune article - 3/31/10

 

Response in the tithing section - 3/10/10

A true believer responds to the tithing section. A critic responds to him.

 

Family Home Evening Tithing Lesson - 3/5/10

Read this lesson from the church's website on tithing. The church lesson specifically says that tithing should be paid on "all our interest or increase, before anything else is taken out". The lesson has an activity game where a family shows all the income and bills it has in a month and the family does not have enough money to pay it's bills. The church's directive is "Point out that you pay tithing first, and then you pay a portion of what you owe on each other bill". Also read how the critics respond to this. Family Home Evening Tithing Lesson

 

Request for Financial Transparency in the LDS Church Petition - 3/4/10

An online petition has been started to request that the LDS Church disclose its financial information the way that many other churches do. http://www.petitiononline.com/2915spar/petition.html

 

Waiting for My Testimony - Church Magazine article - 2/11/10

Read the story of how one faithful member gained her testimony of the Book of Mormon. Reprinted from the Feb, 2010 New Era magazine. Also read how the critics respond to her testimony. Waiting for My Testimony.

 

New MormonStories Podcasts - 2/9/10

Mormon Stories is a collection of podcasts done by John Dehlin. He initially retired the series in 2007 but started doing the podcasts again at the end of 2009. The contributors to MormonThink have always enjoyed listening to the many interesting and unbiased interviews done on Mormon Stories about various aspects of Mormonism. Mormonstories

Another excellent neutral Mormon podcast site that covers a variety of interesting topics is Mormon Expression.

 

Mormon Temple Petition - 2/3/10

MormonThink would like to recognize the Temple Wedding Petition that is spreading across the globe. The petition is to allow for the option of having a civil ceremony outside of the temple without penalty to the couple.

http://www.templeweddingpetition.org/

Jean Bodie and Michelle Spencer discuss their project, The Temple Wedding Petition in a recent podcast on Mormon Expression: episode 34 temple petition

Our comment: As other countries (like England) require a civil ceremony prior to any religious ceremony, we don't see why the church can't allow its members to have a civil ceremony first where everyone can be invited. It's been our observation that whenever the church moves a little towards mainstream, that this makes the church look more appealing to non-members as well as members. The petition is done in a respectful way and we hope the church will one day adopt this practice.

 

Mormon documentary - Washington Post article - 2/1/10

 

Elder Hafen's talk - 'Focus on the known of the restoration' - 1/26/10

The latest newsworthy LDS counsel comes from Elder Hafen's latest talk where he tells LDS to "Look at the restoration's content, don't get lost in the sometimes unclear details and footnotes". Elder Hafen related his remarks specifically to anti-Mormon literature found on the Internet, and stated that too many people of faith let initial curiosity give way to feelings of dismay and betrayal when they come across unfamiliar arguments against the church.

Faithful questioning is a hallmark of a searching soul, he said, but claims found in anti-Mormon literature are no reason to abandon one's testimony, especially because many of the issue-taking and arguments out there have already been addressed by Mormon scholars and leaders. That's one problem with the otherwise wonderful information tool that the Internet is.

"Readers have no way of knowing which critical claims have already been discredited, and the anti-Mormon sponsors are certainly not going to tell them right there on the site," he said.

Elder Hafen said there is much discussion out there regarding the methods through which Joseph Smith translated ancient scripture such as the Book of Mormon, the Pearl of Great Price and the Bible. That's all fine and good so long as the questioner is mainly focused on the works themselves, the great mountains of eternal knowledge they contain, and what that knowledge means in the lives of God's children rather than on the specifics of the revelatory process.

"How (Joseph Smith) received it doesn't ultimately matter to us very much," he said.

MormonThink's comment: Most LDS members have no idea what Hafen is talking about regarding the translation of the scriptures he mentions, BUT most members will totally agree with what he says regardless. If the church really doesn't think there are problems with the translation process, then why don't they stop publishing erroneous pictures of Joseph using the plates to translate with and start depicting Joseph putting his face in a hat with a common stone he found while digging a well?

Hafen's dismissal of any possible challenge to the church, with a waive of his hand, perhaps shows that he doesn't really know the strength of the critics' arguments. Hafen's description of objectively looking at church issues as "scouring the rough for golf balls" is his attempt to trivialize studying anything that isn't from a faithful source. He attempts to discredit every critic so no faithful member will even consider that they might have valid information.

Hafen doesn't acknowledge that the most damaging criticism about the church actually comes from the church itself such as the church's own history books, the Journal of Discourses, the Book of Mormon itself, church teachings, prophet's diaries, etc.

Also, if these issues really have been discredited, then why doesn't the church simply list them on some church-endorsed website as official responses so members can know what the official responses are?

The fact is that most of the issues do not really have good, easy answers like why Joseph married 11 women that already had husbands or why the translations of the Book of Abraham facsimiles and papyri by modern-day Egyptologists don't match Joseph's translations.

Obviously the church is realizing how devastating the Internet is to their claims of a divine restoration and they are trying to do damage control. Hopefully the members reading Hafen's talk will be inspired to see what exactly these issues are that he's referring to and investigate them for themselves using a variety of sources.

 

Word of Wisdom section added - 1/20/10

There are likely many things most Latter-day Saints don't know about the origins of the famous health code revealed to the church by Joseph Smith. Please check out the Word of Wisdom section featuring an essay by author James Whitefield.

 

David Whitmer describes the angel - 12/1/09

John Murphy interviewed Book of Mormon witness David Whitmer in June, 1880.

When asked in 1880 for a description of the angel who showed him the plates, Whitmer replied that the angel "had no appearance or shape." Asked by the interviewer how he then could bear testimony that he had seen and heard an angel, Whitmer replied, "Have you never had impressions?" To which the interviewer responded, "Then you had impressions as the Quaker when the spirit moves, or as a good Methodist in giving a happy experience, a feeling?" "Just so," replied Whitmer. Whitmer interview with John Murphy, June 1880, in EMD5: 63.

Read more about David Whitmer's testimony.

 

Kinderhook Plates update - 12/1/09

Readers ask new questions on the Kinderhook Plates translated by Joseph Smith in 1843.

 

Salt Lake Mall now estimated at $3 Billion cost - 11/10/09

The construction of the LDS Church mall in SLC is now estimated to be at $3 Billion. See the Deseret News article stating the new estimated cost.. For more on the mall.

 

Martin Harris and the Stone Box - 11/10/09

Read the exciting account of the stone box Martin Harris discovered.

 

A linguist looks at Mormonism - 11/10/09

The are significant linguistic problems in the LDS scriptures, especially with the Book of Mormon. Richard Packham is one of the most knowledgeable critics of the LDS Church. He has a vast knowledge of languages and linguistics. That, coupled with his knowledge of the LDS Church and it's detailed history, gives Richard perhaps a unique perspective of the linguistic problems in Mormonism that very few members know the extent of.

 

FAIR continues the attack on MormonThink - 10/28/09

FAIR continues to bash MormonThink (MT) after MT responded to FAIR’s review of MT.  This time, it has focused on one specific topic involving the Urim & Thummim - specifically regarding why the Urim & Thummim was not returned to Joseph along with the plates after the 116 pages were lost. The interesting back and forth analysis is found here: http://www.mormonthink.com/fairseerstones.htm

 

The Ex-Mormon Foundation October '09 conference presentations can now be found on their website in both audio and video formats. - 10/28/09

 

Elder Holland's talk on the Book of Mormon - 10/15/09

Elder Holland's recent General Conference talk on believing in the Book of Mormon has generated a lot of buzz amongst both the faithful and critics of the Church. The best review of this talk we've found is by one of our favorite blogs, Equality Time. An LDS Gem: Elder Holland's Opus

 

FAIR conference discusses MormonThink and StayLDS.com - 10/5/09

The LDS Church Hunting Preserves - Deseret News - 9/16/09

FAIR reviews MormonThink - 8/26/09

How do prophets receive revelation? - 8/26/09

LDS Egyptologist John Gee downplaying Book of Abraham as scripture - 8/14/09

Simon Southerton on FAIR apologetics - 8/14/09

Moroni Visitation painting in August 2009 Ensign - 8/14/09