Testimony & Spiritual Witnesses

 

What most Latter-day Saints have been taught in church and believe as truth.

 

Significant details & problems that most Latter-day Saints probably have not thought about.

 

How do members gain testimonies?

 

A burning in the bosom.

 

Spiritual witnesses from Satan.

 

What about those people that sincerely pray about the Book of Mormon and get a different answer?

 

What about faithful LDS that lost their testimonies?

 

Bearing your testimony when you don’t have one.

 

Believing in false testimonies.

 

Special witnesses of Christ.

 

People of all faiths have similar testimonies of their own religions.

 

Other spiritual witnesses.

 

What about spiritual witnesses that defy explanation?

 

The power of discernment.

 

Patriarchal Blessings.

 

Priesthood blessings.

 

The power of prayer.

 

Feelings vs. facts.

 

Scientific explanations.

 

Responses to these issues by faithful Latter-day Saints.

 

Ending summary by critics.

 

Our thoughts.

 

Links

 

Home Page

 

 

What most Latter-day Saints have been taught in church and believe as truth.

 

A testimony is a reliable method to learn the truth.  Men can deceive, science can be wrong but a true testimony is an undeniable way to establish the truth of the gospel.  A testimony of the Book of Mormon can be gained by reading the Book of Mormon and putting the book to the test by praying about whether or not it is true:

 

Moroni 10:4-5   

4) And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.

5) And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things.

 

A true testimony comes from the Holy Ghost and cannot be denied.  Although the Book of Mormon does not say how exactly the Holy Ghost will manifest the truth to people, many LDS believe it is either a physical sensation such as the burning in the bosom or just an intense feeling that it is true.

 

Joseph Smith revealed that the Holy Ghost will witness something to one’s heart and mind (D&C 8:2).  He also told David Nye White, senior editor of the Pennsylvania’s Pittsburg Weekly Gazette, on August 28 1843 that speaking to Joseph Smith about revelations, “he stated that when he was in a ‘quandary,’ he asked the Lord for a revelation, and when he could not get it, he ‘followed the dictates of his own judgment, which were as good as a revelation to him; but he never gave anything to his people as revelation, unless it was a revelation, and the Lord did reveal himself to him.”  (See Dan Vogel, Early Mormon Documents, Volume 1, page 181.)

 

 

 

 

Link from the official church web site:

http://scriptures.lds.org/en/moro/10

 

 

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Significant details & problems that most Latter-day Saints probably have not thought about.

 

 

 

How do members gain testimonies?

 

Children

Many saints are essentially ‘taught ‘ their testimonies growing up.  We’ve all seen many Fast & Testimony meetings where a five-year old child is at the podium with his mom or dad whispering in his ear telling him exactly what to say “I know the church is twoo, I wuv my mommy and daddy, I know Joseph Smiff was a pwofit, etc.” 

 

Primary classes reinforce this as young children think of their primary teachers the same way as their school teachers – adults that teach them true things.  The primary music like  "Follow the Prophet" and the primary games like "Do as I'm doing" also reinforce the ideas for these children to act like adults and have testimonies about things they know nothing about. 

 

Naturally children believe what their parents teach them, whether it be factual things like the multiplication tables and geography or things not true such as the Easter Bunny and Santa Claus.  To children it’s one and the same.  And when these children grow up they naturally hold on to the religious beliefs that they were taught as children.

 

If those same children were raised by Islamic Extremists they would very likely support those views instead of Mormonism.

 

 

Adult Converts

How do adults that were not brought up LDS gain their testimonies?  There are perhaps many answers to this question.  Some say that they prayed about the Book of Mormon and got a feeling that it was true.  Some claim they even got a burning in the bosom.  Others just knew it was true but can’t say why.  Others never really got a real witness but lean on other’s testimonies thinking that the other people must have real testimonies and that’s good enough for them.

 

Many converts, who have since become inactive, admitted that they were so impressed by the missionaries that they didn’t want to disappoint these young men that took such an interest in their well-being, so they said they had a testimony when they really didn’t have one.

 

 

Missionary methods

The following is from a study on how to make people believe something is plausible that is implausible.  Those of us of who have been missionaries may recognize having used a similar process in helping investigators "gain a testimony" using Moroni's promise.  Here is the conclusion of the study:


"We have proposed a three-processes model for the development of false memories for implausible events through suggestive procedures.  The first process is to make an event be perceived as plausible, the second is to help individuals acquire the autobiographical belief that it is likely to have happened to them.  The third, not examined in this study, is to help people interpret their thoughts and fantasies about the event happening as memories.  Our data shed light on two of the three processes.

We have shown that information about an event from a presumably credible source can alter perceived plausibility of the event.  Our results also indicated that this information can produce changes in the perceived likelihood of the event having occurred to the individual.  When suggestive personalized information was added, the effects on autobiographical likelihood were substantially greater and a sizable minority of participants came to believe that the event probably happened to them.  In addition, we have shown that this happened although the event continued to be seen by participants as relatively implausible.  This provides evidence for the fact that even a relatively small increase in plausibility of an initially implausible event can pave the way for additional suggestion, so that some people increase the perceived likelihood of occurrence of the event in their life."

 

            http://faculty.washington.edu/eloftus/Articles/mazzloft.htm

 


In converting people to Mormonism, missionaries follow the three-step process this way:

1. The investigator reads the Moroni Promise and we bear testimony, suggesting that the experience (and what we teach them) is plausible.

2. We ask them to pray about it and to feel a particular feeling, which makes it part of their autobiography, increasing for them the plausibility of what we have told them.

3. We interpret their feelings and subsequent positive feelings, fantasies, and events connected with Mormonism in a way that increases plausibility.

Once the "testimony" is created, it is reinforced and further developed through social learning, positive reinforcement ("fellowshipping"), public expression in testimony meeting, and the acceptance of additional commitments by the convert.

 

 

Also, see the commitment pattern as taught by the missionaries:

http://lds4u.com/Discussions/commitment.htm

 

 

What if you don’t have a real testimony?

Although the leaders of the Church would like it if everyone simply had a strong testimony of the Church, many people don’t.  Here’s advice from The Ensign:

 

"We should be patient in developing and strengthening our testimonies. Rather than expecting immediate or spectacular manifestations, though they will come when needed, we should pray for a testimony, study the scriptures, follow the counsel of our prophet and other Church leaders, and live the principles of the gospel.  Our testimonies then will grow and mature naturally, perhaps imperceptibly at times, until they become driving forces in our lives."
--Joseph B. Wirthlin, "Patience, a Key to Happiness", Ensign, May 1987, 30


Critic’s Point:  Sounds like if you don’t get any real answer from the Holy Ghost that you should just keep on following the Church and do everything you’re suppose to do such as paying 10% of all your income to an organization that you do not know is true or not, and maybe you will slowly gain one and that may take many years or even a lifetime.  It is suspicious when the leaders tell their members that the way to gain a testimony is to follow the leaders and some time in the future you may get a testimony but don’t expect anything spectacular.

 

 

 

 

A burning in the bosom.

 

Per the Book of Mormon, a testimony is suppose to come from the Holy Ghost but the BOM does not specify how exactly he will manifest the truth to the truthseeker.  However the Doctrine & Covenants may give additional insight.  Although this was specifically referring to how Joseph was to translate the BOM, many LDS say it also applies to the BOM promise as well.

 

D&C:  9, 8-9

8) But, behold, I say unto you, that you must study it out in your mind; then you must ask me if it be right, and if it is right I will cause that your bosom shall burn within you; therefore, you shall feel that it is right.

9) But if it be not right you shall have no such feelings, but you shall have a stupor of thought that shall cause you to forget the thing which is wrong; therefore, you cannot write that which is sacred save it be given you from me.

 

The burning in the bosom.

Critics say that people that claim to get a ‘burning in the bosom’ are just experiencing a warming sensation that is caused by the person itself and not an external force.  Ever wonder where the expression ‘heart-warming’ comes from?  It’s meant to describe a warm feeling you feel inside yourself.  It’s related to emotional responses to intense drama.  The drama does not need to be true.  For example, heart-warming is often used to describe watching a ‘tear-jerker’ movie where a beloved character dies saving someone else or reading a fictional, inspirational novel.

 

 

Feelings

Since many people don’t actually get a ‘burning in the bosom’, a testimony is often attributed to a feeling that you know something as opposed to a specific physical manifestation.  Descriptions of the feeling vary greatly.  If you asked 10 LDS people to define their testimony, you would likely get 10 different definitions.

 

From conversations with numerous LDS and from reflecting upon our own testimonies of the Church when they were the strongest, it appears that a testimony is basically a strong feeling.  It’s an emotional response to an undefined situation. 

 

 

Warm Fuzzies or the Holy Ghost?

The whole "burning bosom" warm feeling is not uncommon in daily life for people of any and all religious backgrounds.  We felt it when Superman saves someone that fell off a building, when Darth Vader turns on the emperor to save his son Luke, when Lassie finally came home and when the Grinch returned all the toys to Whoville. 

 

Some people get goosebumps, some get a lump in their throat, some get teary-eyed from watching these emotionally-charged fictional movies.  Likewise, even atheists feel that "tingling, warm sensation" in many activities.  You take a nature lover who climbs to the top of a mountain and looks out over the valley with a setting sun and – wham – the tingles start.  The patriotic person who listens to a rousing rendition of the National Anthem or the Battle Hymn of the Republic gets the shivers. 

 

All of these experiences can cause the "burning bosom" regardless of religion.  That is because they are "emotion-based."  Whether something is meaningful to us is the result of our past experiences and belief system.  While an American would feel the tingles during the National Anthem, a visiting Frenchman may not feel anything at all.  Why?  Because the American Anthem has no meaning for him.

 

 

How to purchase that feeling.

The feelings are certainly not unique to the LDS Church.  Bonneville Productions, the media firm owned by the Church, claims to produce that special feeling that many of us and investigators associate with the Holy Spirit.  In fact, Bonneville has trademarked this term and call it "Heartsell". 

“Their unique strength is the ability to touch the hearts and minds of audiences, evoking first feeling, then thought and, finally, action. They call this uniquely powerful brand of creative HeartSell® — strategic emotional advertising that stimulates response.”


If you own a business you can also employ "Heartsell" by hiring Bonneville to consult for you.  At first, we couldn't believe that they would blatantly admit that they can manufacture such feelings but they do.

http://www.bonnint.com/story-1467e.php

 

 

 

References:

http://www.rmwhome.com/Mormons/Documents/testimony.htm

 

 

 

 

Spiritual witnesses from Satan.

 

Joseph Smith said "Some revelations are of God: some revelations are of man: and some revelations are of the devil."

 

From David Whitmer, An Address to All Believers in Christ, p.30 - p.31 [It will be on slightly different pages in different editions of Whitmer's pamphlet.  Emphasis added]

We were waiting on Martin Harris who was doing his best to sell a part of his farm, in order to raise the necessary funds. After a time Hyrum Smith and others began to get impatient, thinking that Martin Harris was too slow and under transgression for not selling his land at once, even if at a great sacrifice. Brother Hyrum thought they should not wait any longer on Martin Harris, and that the money should be raised in some other way. Brother Hyrum was vexed with Brother Martin, and thought they should get the money by some means outside of him, and not let him have anything to do with the publication of the Book, or receiving any of the profits thereof if any profits should accrue. He was wrong in thus judging Bro. Martin, because he was doing all he could toward selling his land.  Brother Hyrum said it had been suggested to him that some of the brethren might go to Toronto, Canada, and sell the copy-right of the Book of Mormon for considerable money: and he persuaded Joseph to inquire of the Lord about it.  Joseph concluded to do so.  He had not yet given up the stone. Joseph looked into the hat in which he placed the stone, and received a revelation that some of the brethren should go to Toronto, Canada, and that they would sell the copy-right of the Book of Mormon.  Hiram Page and Oliver Cowdery went to Toronto on this mission, but they failed entirely to sell the copy-right, returning without any money.  Joseph was at my father's house when they returned. I was there also, and am an eye witness to these facts. Jacob Whitmer and John Whitmer were also present when Hiram Page and Oliver Cowdery returned from Canada.  Well, we were all in great trouble; and we asked Joseph how it was that he had received a revelation from the Lord for some brethren to go to Toronto and sell the copy-right, and the brethren had utterly failed in their undertaking.  Joseph did not know how it was, so he enquired of the Lord about it, and behold the following revelation came through the stone: "Some revelations are of God: some revelations are of man: and some revelations are of the devil." So we see that the revelation to go to Toronto and sell the copy-right was not of God, but was of the devil or of the heart of man.  When a man enquires of the Lord concerning a matter, if he is deceived by his own carnal desires, and is in error, he will receive an answer according to his erring heart, but it will not be a revelation from the Lord.


In discussing the "Canadian Copyright Caper" B. H. Roberts quotes this entire passage in Comprehensive History of the Church Vol. 1 pp. 162-66

 

So just how do we know what revelations are from God, from the devil or from the heart of man if even the Prophet Joseph Smith couldn’t tell?

 

 

Counsel from current General Authorities

Elder Boyd K. Packer in an address that was printed in the 1983 LDS Ensign magazine in an article titled "Candle of the Lord":

"Be ever on guard lest you be deceived by inspiration from an unworthy source.  You can be given false spiritual messages.  There are counterfeit spirits just as there are counterfeit angels.  Be careful lest you be deceived, for the devil may come disguised as an angel of light.

The spiritual part of us and the emotional part of us are so closely linked that it is possible to mistake an emotional impulse for something spiritual.  We occasionally find people who receive what they assume to be spiritual promptings from God, when those promptings are either centered in the emotions or are from the adversary."

 

This address from Elder Packer was likely prompted by many letters to the church concerning "false positives" of the spirit.  We've seen this happen many times.  One incident in particular stands out.  There was a returned missionary who fell in love with a woman shortly after returning home from his mission.  They dated for a time and then he prayed and asked God whether she is the "right one" to marry.  He got a very strong tingly feeling that confirmed, in his mind, that God revealed that she, indeed, was the right one.  They married.

 

Not a few months passed when it was discovered that his wife was having an affair with another man (who just happened to be a bishop of another ward with a large family).  He was also shocked to learn that she was having affairs with this man all during their dating and courtship including the time he was praying about marrying her.  He was devastated and had the temple marriage annulled.

 

Most LDS members have a hard enough time getting ANY type of "witness" at all and now we’re faced with the dilemma to somehow differentiate between whether it comes from God, their emotions or the devil.  To make matters worse, Elder Packer in his address offered no way to discern between them.  If the prophet Joseph Smith couldn’t tell the difference between revelation from God and from Satan how can the rest of us possibly say with surety that any revelation or witnesses we get are indeed really from God?

 

References:

http://www.mormonthink.com/prophetsweb.htm#canrevelationscomefromdevil

http://www.rmwhome.com/Mormons/Documents/testimony.htm

 

 

 

 

What about those people that sincerely pray about the Book of Mormon and get a different answer?

 

Many people, that the missionaries give the Book of Mormon to, sincerely pray about it and do not get a witness that it’s true and therefore do not join the Church.  How are we to reconcile that?  Should not the Holy Ghost bear witness to all sincere seekers of the truth?  The often heard trite answers such as ‘he wasn’t ready’ or ‘you expect too much’ don’t really make sense when you think about it. 

 

The promise as stated in the BOM is conditional only upon asking with a sincere heart, with real intent and having faith in Christ.  Virtually everyone who wants to know if it’s true has that.  The missionaries even instruct people on how to pray if they need it.  So why doesn’t the Holy Ghost tell all these people that the BOM is true as well?

 

The Church would have you think that if everyone read the BOM, prayed about its validity that they would all receive a witness to its truthfulness.  But simply put, many more people read the BOM, or at least parts of it, and do not believe it to be true than those that read it and accept it to be true.

 

From former LDS members:

 

I had that good ol' burning in the bosom. That's a huge part of why I stayed in so long. After a bout of inactivity, I became confused that I could still have that burning while doing things the church would disprove of like watching an R-rated movie, taking a walk with my kids on a Sunday afternoon instead of going to church, etc.

In fact, I had the most profound, most poignant, strongest burning on the bosom when I got down on my knees and asked God if it's possible that the Mormon church was not true. Yup, I had that burning in the bosom and an unbelievable feeling of peace came over me and I just knew that it was not true. I knew it and I accepted it then and there.

Yup, that burning told me for years that the church was true, and then it told me that it wasn't. You just can't rely on emotions like that. You have to rely on reason. Do the research, add it all up, then see if any of it makes any sense. I did that with religion in general and my belief in God.

 

Jenny

 

 

 

A few years after I became inactive, and when people from my ward and my family asked why, I told them, I asked and I didn't get anything about it being true. They all openly said that I must be doing SOMETHING wrong, or some sort of sin, even though I was a virgin at the time, no drugs, nothing considered "dirty" by the LDS Church.

 

Formaggio

 

 

 

 

What about faithful LDS that lost their testimonies?

 

Advice often given in church for those that are struggling with their testimony is to rely on others testimonies as you develop your own.  But how do we know that other members really have valid testimonies?

 

Growing up in the Church I knew a very staunch member who was one of the pillars of the ward.  He was a stake high councilman with a strong testimony that he shared often.  He would bear his testimony at most every Fast & Testimony meeting using the typical phrases such as ‘I know this Church is true’ and ‘I have a testimony of Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon’.  Some years later he left the Church over historical issues of the Church that he felt were too serious to ignore.  So what are we to say about his former rock-solid testimony of the Church?

 

If he really had a real testimony of the Church then how could he have lost it over historical facts?  Many would say he perhaps never had a bona-fid testimony from the Holy Ghost.  If that’s the case, then how can we trust anyone else’s testimony?  How do we know that all those people that bear their testimonies every week aren’t just like this righteous high councilman that only ‘thought’ he had a testimony?

 

In the early days of the Church even many apostles lost their testimonies.  How could this be?  If apostles’ testimonies can be so weak and not real than what does this say about the average member’s testimony? 

 

Some say that it was different back then and modern-day, high-ranking Church leaders don’t lose their testimonies. 

 

Jerrell Chesney served as the president of the Oklahoma City temple from 2000-2005.  His wife served as the temple Matron.  He and his wife had worked hard in the temple and had earned a reputation for sustaining good attendance figures.  Prior to being a temple president, Jerrell Chesney had served in numerous church leadership positions, including Stake President and bishop several times.  He had been again serving as a bishop of his home ward in Shawnee, Oklahoma when he and his wife resigned their Church membership in 2006 reportedly over problematic historical issues he discovered about the Church that the LDS leaders could not resolve.  If you search the Church’s website for his name you will find it mentioned in The Ensign as he was a very respected Church official.

 

Many bishops, several Church Education System teachers, at least five stake presidents, at least one Temple President, at least two Mission President (Wendell Hall) and several Church Historians also have left the church in the past few years over historical problems of the church.  These are just the people we know of (as of Jan 2008).  Who knows how many other members in high positions have also left?

 

 

The Santa Analogy

The following is from a  conversation of a former believing member and his bishop: 

I resigned from the LDS Church and informed my bishop that the reasons had to do with discovering the real history of the Church.  When I was done he asked about the spiritual witness I had surely received as a missionary.  I agreed that I had felt a sure witness, as strong as he currently felt.  I gave him the analogy of Santa; I believed in Santa until I was 12.  I refused to listen to reason from my friends who had discovered the truth much earlier...I just knew.  However, once I learned the facts, feelings changed.  I told him that Mormons have to re-define faith in order to believe; traditionally, faith is an instrument to bridge that gap between where science, history and logic end, and what you hope to be true.  Mormonism re-defines faith as embracing what you hope to be true in spite of science, fact and history.

 

 

 

 

Bearing your testimony when you don’t have one.

 

Perhaps it’s not official Church canon, but we’ve all heard something like this in wards throughout the world; ‘if you don’t have a testimony, still bear one and that’s how you can gain one’, ‘a testimony is gained in the bearing of it’, ‘your weak testimony will grow stronger when you bear it often’. 

 

In a talk by Richard Wirthlin, he quotes Elder Packer:


"A testimony is to be found in the bearing of it.  Somewhere in your quest for spiritual knowledge, there is that 'leap of faith,' as the philosophers call it.  It is the moment when you have gone to the edge of the light and step into the darkness to discover that the way is lighted ahead for just a footstep or two."

The citation for this in Wirthlin's talk is:
18. "That All May Be Edified" (1982), 340.

 

 

In the April 2008 General Conference, Dallin Oaks made the following statement:


“Another way to seek a testimony seems astonishing when compared with the methods of obtaining other knowledge.  We gain or strengthen a testimony by bearing it.  Someone even suggested that some testimonies are better gained on the feet bearing them than on the knees praying for them.”

 

The people following this counsel repeat things over and over, until they convince themselves that they're true.  Just keep telling yourself, "I know it's true...I know it's true...I know it's true--" --and before long, you'll believe it!

 

The advice is essentially to lie enough times until you believe it yourself.  Just think about this for a minute.  If you don’t have testimony, bear one anyway.  Does this make sense?  Lying is wrong.  If you say ‘you think you know’ or ‘you believe’ that’s fine.  We can all accept that as that’s a truthful statement.  But to say ‘you know’ when you don’t really know is lying plain and simple.  To the church, such “technical distinctions” between belief and knowledge don’t seem to matter - why?  Because the Church is True anyway, so the end justifies such means.

 

 

Peer Pressure

The peer pressure involved in bearing testimonies is enormous.  In any leadership position you are expected to bear your testimony, regardless of whether you have a genuine one or not.  We personally would much rather prefer to only hear people’s real accounts of their beliefs and not ‘made-up’ testimonies given in order to help others gain one.

 

And how do we know that the people we hear bearing their testimonies every month are not just following Elder Packer’s advice and bearing testimonies when they don’t really have them?

 

 

 

 

Believing in false testimonies.

 

What would happen if the spirit bore witness to something that we found out wasn’t true?

 

Paul H. Dunn

Paul H. Dunn was a General Authority of the LDS Church.  He was a member of the First Quorum of Seventy for many years.  For years he broadcasted personal experiences of his life that were completely untrue and undetected in the presence of the prophet, apostles, seventies and huge amounts of saints.  Elder Dunn wrote, for example, how God protected him as enemy machine-gun bullets ripped away his clothing, gear and helmet without ever touching his skin and how he was preserved by the Lord.

 

These stories motivated at least two people that one of us knew to be baptized during his mission - because they "felt the spirit" when listening to him speak.  The "spirit" was strong, yet the whole thing never happened.  So what exactly was the "spirit" testifying to?  Obviously it was an emotional reaction based upon those riveting lies and Dunn was a master of manipulating the "spirit" to testify of things that were not true. 

 

Eventually Brother Dunn’s deceptions were exposed.  He apologized and said something about how he liked to tell exciting, motivational stories.  He became the very first General Authority to gain "emeritus" status and was quietly removed from public church life.

 

I personally had dinner with Elder Dunn many years ago.  I liked the guy and enjoyed listening to his stories during the conference he spoke at.  But even though I thought I ‘felt the spirit’ during his recounting of fascinating events of his life, I now know that many of those stories were fabrications and I was mislead by whatever spiritual feeling that came over me while I listened to his stories.

 

 

We’ve been told countless times by well-read people who know all the scientific and historical evidence against the LDS church, that despite the evidence, they “still know it is true because of spiritual experiences.”  Condescendingly, a man told me that he felt sorry for everyone else who didn’t have these spiritual experiences like he did, so that they could also know the ‘truth’.  One of our members has had these spiritual experiences throughout his life, including at the death of his daughter, and also as an LDS missionary.  So let’s consider these spiritual witnesses.

 

Reference:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_H._Dunn

 

 

Personal stories from former LDS members:

-  A stake president gave a serious invitation for myself and my wife to move to his stake at the drop of a hat, to help populate a struggling ward with an extra priesthood body.  He mentioned the "blessings" that we would receive as a consequence.  I replied that our Stake president had just called me to be EQP and asked him the question "Which revelation is more correct - yours or his?".  He fumbled with this question and went onto some other topic.  I suddenly saw a very human way of operating by a stake president.

 

-  One friend of mine had his mother receive a “priesthood blessing” of “counsel and comfort” where the mother was told his father was to die shortly – as you can imagine this caused life changing turmoil both for the mother and son. This occurred some 19 years ago, and the father is still alive and well.

 

-  My daughter and boyfriend went to the temple to get inspiration as to whether they should marry. She got a ‘yes’ answer. He got a ‘no’ answer.

 

-  My parents felt inspired that a monetary investment would pay off well. They lost money.

 

-  Our Primary President felt inspired about calling a certain sister to a Primary position. The bishop vetoed that inspiration.

 

-  A couple, who are our friends, went to the temple for an answer as to whether he should attend law school.  He got a ‘yes’ answer, and she got a ‘no’ answer.

 

-  A neighbor had revelation that ‘Twin Girls’ were waiting to be born to her family, so she became pregnant by deceiving her husband who wanted no more children.  She had a single boy.

 

Then there is the disconnect where people pray and find lost keys, while others pray about lost cousins who aren’t found until after they have asphyxiated in a trunk.

 

Personal testimonies of the principle of "Adam is our God" yet linger from former-latter-day-saints. Try reading the words of Eliza R. Snow in "Women of Mormondom" (available in modern reprint), and you be left with no doubt about the Holy Ghost's witness to her about Adam -- it certainly gives a whole new meaning to "O My Father" in the hymn book.

 

We suspect that all of us have heard similar stories where the inspiration, revelation, and spirit whispering have not turned out the way they were supposed to turn out.  Then we start rationalizing… “The answer was No.  His ways are not our ways.  In His time, not ours.”  Do we twist answers to make them fit what we desire?  Are we programmed and conditioned to practice self-deception?  Are we letting emotion override reason because we ‘”feel good about it”?  Do we emphasize magical thinking?  Do we let testimony trump multiple lines of scientific evidence and fact?  Who can tell which experiences are externally valid, and which are within our own brains?”

 

We all feel that our perception of the world is accurate, and we could not function without believing we know how things really are.  Perhaps this three minute video would be of interest: http://www.harrisonline.com/links/2007/05/color-changing-card-trick.htm

 

 

 

 

Special witnesses of Christ.

 

We’ve all heard that one of the important reasons that we have a prophet and apostles in modern times (as well as ancient times) is for them to act as a ‘special witnesses’ of Christ.  What does this mean?  Many members believe it means that these 15 men may have actually seen Christ or have had some sort of definitive experience that would eliminate any possible doubt as to the validity of God’s true church on earth.

 

We’ve heard that when missionaries are visited by apostles and they give them the opportunity to ask them any questions, it almost always come up that someone asks the big question ‘Have you actually seen Christ?’.  The usual response is something vague like ‘If I have, it would be too special to talk about’.

 

A member of my stake presidency was talking to me about Gordon B. Hinckley’s interview with Mike Wallace and said that Wallace asked him if he’d ever seen Christ (this may have been off-camera).  Hinckley responded that he has not seen Christ.  The stake presidency member said that GBH had to say that to Mike Wallace so it wouldn’t be paraded around on National TV but that we all know that GBH has seen Christ.

 

It’s obvious that many Latter-day Saints believe that the special witnesses, that we call prophets and apostles, have actually seen Christ.  What do the apostles themselves say?

 

President George Albert Smith

Mar 25, 1950 - President George Albert Smith writes, "I have not seen the Father or the Son, neither have I heard their voices in an audible way, but I have felt their presence and have enjoyed the whispering of the Still Small Voice that comes from them, the result of which has given me a testimony of the truth."
"The Vocation of David Wright: An Essay in Analytic Biography1" by  Bruce W. Jorgensen  in Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought, Vol. 11, No. 2 Summer 1978, p. 48-49


Critic’s point:  George Albert Smith was not just and Apostle when he wrote this, he was Church President, THE PROPHET etc.  His testimony as a prophet doesn’t really sound like he’s a ‘special witness’.  His testimony is similar to the average member.

 

 

Apostle Neal Maxwell and Apostle Dallin Oaks

In an interview with Steve Benson (President Ezra Taft Benson’s grandson), Apostle Neal Maxwell and Apostle Dallin Oaks were reportedly asked  “What personal spiritual experiences have you had which gave you your testimonies as special witnesses for Christ?”

Per Steve Benson:

In response, Apostle Oaks summoned up memories of his days as a college student at the University of Chicago. Back then, he said, he thought he "knew a lot" about the gospel. He admitted, however, that he had "questions about the Church"--although he did not elaborate for us exactly what they might have been.

Oaks said a local LDS Institute teacher helped him work out the answers.

Apostle Maxwell hearkened back to his days as a boy, when he said he observed his father give a healing "priesthood blessing" to his sister, whom Maxwell thought was dead.

This, brothers and sisters, was the sum total of their answers--answers that I did not need to travel 700 miles to Salt Lake to hear. I could have saved everyone a lot of time and trouble if I had just stayed home, gone to the next fast and testimony meeting at our local ward and listened to regular members bear personal witness to the same kind of experiences.  

There was no testimony bearing from these modern-day Peters and Pauls of personal visits, in the Flesh, from the Father or the Son. 

There was no telling of any "road to Damascus" story.

There was no recounting of angelic visitations. 

There was no description of rushing winds or flames of fire.

In short, there was "no there there."

Reference:  http://twincentral.com/site/pages/articles/doctrines/alt/LDS/stevebenson.htm

 

 

All the accounts we’ve ever heard about the prophets and apostles are similar to these.  Their testimonies are simply no different than any other member’s testimony.  There’s nothing special or divine in their testimonies that eliminates the room for doubt about the LDS Church being God’s one true church on earth.  In fact these testimonies, as well as the average members’ testimonies, aren’t really any different than the testimonies of members of other faiths.

 

Think about how many apostles left the church in the early days.  Many left after hearing Martin Harris say publicly that he did not see the plates with his natural eyes but only in a vision or imagination, and the same was true for all the other witnesses.  If these ‘special witnesses’ of Christ really had a special witness then they would not have left the church merely over what Martin Harris said.

 

 

Prominent Church members led astray

LDS leader Jesse Strang claimed to be the true prophet that succeeded Joseph after he was killed.  Many people followed Strang after he sent a letter claiming he had received a revelation that he should be prophet.

The letter convinced most of Smith's family and several other prominent Mormons that Strang's claims were genuine; John Whitmer, David Whitmer, Martin Harris, Hiram Page, John E. Page, William E. McLellin, William Smith, Smith's first wife and widow, Emma Hale Smith, the sisters of Joseph Smith, William Marks, George Miller, and others, including Joseph Smith's mother, Lucy Mack Smith.  Lucy wrote to Reuben Hedlock: "I am satisfied that Joseph appointed J.J. Strang.  It is verily so."(ibid) According to William Smith, all of Joseph Smith's family (excepting Hyrum Smith's widow), endorsed Strang; (Palmer, 211)

Here we have all of the living Book of Mormon witness, except Oliver Cowdery, as well as most of Smith’s family and several other prominent members of the early LDS church accept Strang’s claim of being a prophet by merely reading his letter.  How much credibility can we give these people and their testimonies when they accept someone so easily as a prophet who later turns out to be a fraud?

 

 

David Whitmer’s testimony

After David Whitmer left the church he said  “If you believe my testimony to the Book of Mormon; if you believe that God spake to us three witnesses by his own voice, then I tell you that in June, 1838, God spake to me again by his own voice from the heavens, and told me to separate myself from among the Latter-day Saints, for as they sought to do unto me, so should it be done unto them.”

(Address to All Believers in Christ, p. 27, 1887).

 

Critic’s point:  So which testimony of David Whitmer is wrong?

 

 

Martin Harris’s testimony

Martin Harris joined the Shakers for about two years.  The Shakers had a large number of witnesses who claimed they saw angels and the Roll and Book. There are over a hundred pages of testimony from "Living Witnesses." The evidence seems to show that Martin Harris accepted the Sacred Roll and Book as a divine revelation. Clark Braden stated: "Harris declared repeatedly that he had as much evidence for a Shaker book he had as for the Book of Mormon" (The Braden and Kelly Debate, p.173).

 

Critic’s point:  So which testimony of Martin Harris is wrong?

 

 

 

References
http://www.mormonthink.com/prophetsweb.htm#specialwitnesses

An Insider’s View of Mormon Origins, Grant Palmer.

http://www.mormonthink.com/witnessesweb.htm

 

 

 

 

People of all faiths have similar testimonies of their own religions.

 

 

Although they might phrase things somewhat differently, people of virtually all faiths, Christian and non-Christian, believe that the church that they belong to is ‘correct’ and approved of from God.  This is especially true of Catholics, Muslims, Jehovah’s Witnesses, RLDS (Community of Christ) and other non-protestant religions.  Shamans have spiritual experiences and visions, as do Buddhist Monks.  Yet all these faiths are mutually exclusive.

 

Although many protestants do not necessarily believe that their church is absolutely correct and another protestant church is totally wrong i.e. Lutherans are correct and Baptists are wrong, most have a burning testimony of Jesus.  However their perception of God and Jesus is different than the one attributed to Mormonism.  They reject the God and Jesus as taught by the LDS faith so their testimony of Deity is different than the LDS member’s testimony of the Godhood.  Both cannot be correct. 

 

Do we discount the spiritual experiences of others because “Everyone has the light of Christ, which they misinterpret, but we have the fullness of the Spirit”?  Is thinking that our spiritual experiences are more valid than others the epitome of arrogance and conceit?

 

 

The following are a few accounts of actual ‘testimonies’ of real people from various religions:

Jehovah’s Witness

The Jehovah's Witnesses came to my door one day when I was 15-years-old and I bought their literature and let them come to my home for a weekly "Bible study". One day I read something in their literature that gave me "the burning in the soul" and I immediately "knew" that Jehovah had sent the Jehovah's Witnesses to my door because I had been praying for this moment for years (even though I was only 15). And I became a Jehovah's Witness.

 

Muslim

I had never in my life heard of The Holy Qur'an. I began to briefly read some pages. While I was reading I knew that what I was reading was true, it was like a slap in the face, a wake up call. The Qur'an is so clear and easy to understand.

http://thepeopleofthebook.org/islam6testimony.html

 

RLDS (Community of Christ)

I go where I feel God is directing me to go.  I go to this church because I feel so lead by the Holy Spirit as supported by the many spiritual experiences, blessings and testimonies that have been a part of my life.  I go to this church because based on my background, my study of the scriptures and church history, it makes so much sense to me and brings so much joy to me, that I feel complete.  I go to this church because I believe it to have a greater fulness of the gospel than can be found anywhere else without the stain of getting caught up in the trivialities of a few scriptures or the errant teachings of man.  I go to this church because of the joy that I feel when I am serving the Lord.

Terry

 

FLDS

There are many people who have received spiritual witnesses just as many LDS have, for completely different "truths."  We were amazed as we read through several testimonies of FLDS folks.  They sounded just like they came from LDS testimony meetings, except there were a few things that were different, but the spiritual witnesses were the same.  Here is an excerpt of one that is not particularly unique, but you can see the standard LDS pattern in it, except this person had a strong witness from the Holy Ghost that GBH is not a prophet and that James D. Harmston is a prophet.  There are many such FLDS testimoniesThe LDS witnesses of the Holy Ghost are no more or less correct or compelling that these FLDS testimonies, or the testimonies of born again Christians, or Muslims.

“A wonderful thing happened once we arrived in Manti. I felt all of my misgivings, anxiety, mistrust just melt away as immediately as we arrived here. A calm peacefulness filled me (incidentally, filling the void I'd been trying to fill for five months) and gave me rest from the trials I had suffered through. My great mistrust of my husband (that is, of his knowledge) was replaced with trust and I allowed him to teach me, finally. I forgot all about trying to prove TLC wrong. From that point on, I discovered so much truth! I was like a sponge, soaking it all in. Choosing what to believe was not an issue, the truth just seemed to speak to my soul and I knew it was true. I didn't have an ounce of doubt in my whole body. Every fiber of my being knew and recognized the truth and I only wanted to know more. I believed it with all of my heart. I knew the Holy Ghost was bearing witness of truth and I knew the same would happen concerning the Lord's Servant, James D. Harmston. 

And it did. The Holy Ghost bore witness to me that He is indeed the Lord's Servant on earth at this time, He has been divinely appointed to lead and direct the Father's elect at this time. Every time I am in the same room when Jim is teaching, I receive the witness of heaven that he is indeed who he says he is and that what he is teaching is most certainly true. I testify to you that I never had the witness of heaven telling me Gordon B. Hinckley was a true prophet. I have been full of emotion at times and at times, I have been filled with the Spirit of God and I tell you, they are two different things. That is something I didn't know before I came here.

I can and do testify that Jesus is the Christ, that He lives! I have felt the indescribable joy and love that emanates from Him. I know that any man who has been in the presence of the Savior, would declare repentance and baptism to all that would hear him, for the sole purpose of bringing those who are willing into the Savior's presence. I know that Jim is a true prophet, by the witness of heaven burned into my soul and because his works prove it. He spends his life seeking to bring others into the presence of the Savior. Anyone who has truly felt the Savior's love would seek to share it with all who will be worthy to receive it. Jim speaks, teaches, exhorts, and lives his life as one having authority. This truth has been burned into my soul over and over again. I testify to you that Gordon B. Hinckley is leading the LDS church with all of its members in a false hope of Christ. Those LDS members cannot come into the presence of the Savior in this lifetime while they continue to follow a false prophet. GBH does not teach how to come into the presence of the Savior, which requires obedience to ALL the ordinances of the House of the Lord. I know that the fullness of the gospel as restored through Joseph Smith is true with every fiber of my being. I know that the fullness of the gospel is not taught in the LDS church. I know that the ordinances offered in LDS temples have been changed despite Joseph Smith's warning to keep them the same as they ever have been. I know that Joseph Smith taught his people to receive their calling and election ordinances and that these ordinances were to be ratified by the Savior. That can no longer be accomplished in the LDS Church. I know that those who diligently study LDS Church history will find the essentials of the gospel that have been lost. And a diligent study will bring you here, if you desire truth. The truth is here and the Spirit of God will back it up.”

 

Hindu

From a LDS member:

 

The Mormons resort to asking you to pray about the truthfulness of the church.  I had several people that claimed they did the same thing with their church and felt the same feelings we often described for the truthfulness of the church.  In fact a friend of mine, without knowing anything about the Mormon Church described the exact feelings we would use as Mormons, only he was given a hug by a supposed reincarnated being from the Hindu religion.  He bawled like a baby.  How about that, try as I might I could never doctrinally justify God responding to another person with a conflicting message.

 

Brasilman

 

 

American Indian

The Colorado Indians experienced a ... culturally induced delusion when they climbed to a mountaintop to fast until the Great Spirit came to them.  Every Indian boy who had to pass through this rite of puberty wasn't allowed to eat anything until he reported that the Great Spirit spoke to him.  Every young man in the tribe actually hallucinated hearing and seeing the Great Spirit.  But his hallucinations were not psychotic; it was simply something that the whole culture believed in to the point of mass delusion.
From Letting Go by Zev Wanderer and Tracy Cabot, p. 73

 

 

An Untestimony

I believe that God or nature gave us brains to use and that the use of them will help us to survive. If God gave us the ability to reason, it should not be wasted.  Now saying that, do you believe in revelation?  If you believe in revelation and that a believing member of the church will get an answer from God when a sincere question is asked, then what do you make of the following?  This is my personal story of revelation.

In August 2003 my father died. This was very hard on me and on my family and was completely out of the blue.  My brother and sister had come into town to visit and we all had lunch together and that night he died.  While my brother and I were cleaning out his house and getting ready to move my mother to live with my sister, I found a book entitled Freemasonry and Mormonism.  This book was the start of my realization that the church was a fraud.  It was written by a Mormon apologist and was the worst written book that I had read in a long time.  It even had a chapter in it on Navajo religion that was complete and utter bunk.  Navajo religion was one of the things I studied for my Masters in Anthropology and I had been a missionary on the Navajo reservation and was fluent in the Navajo language.  Reading this book started me on a path of study that lasted 3-4 months.  I read 1st century Christian texts, studied Masonry, early church history and theology.  This was all during the fall of 2003.  During the Christmas season I had a revelatory experience.  I now know that at that time I was plagued with a bad case of cognitive dissonance.  I had compartmentalized church teachings separate from what I knew as an anthropologist.  During this time of study and reflection I also was praying earnestly for an answer to the question of “is the Mormon Church true?” when all the evidence I was reading, from old church and other sources, said it was not.

During this Christmas season as I was reading one evening, alone, at home, I sat and thought.  I let reason flow and all of a sudden it was as if scales had fallen from my eyes and I was able to see and to think rationally again.  I almost felt like I was sitting beside myself and was able to think rationally once more.  This ecstatic experience fostered a sense of peace and comfort, I was no longer confused over my question of the truth of the Mormon Church.  I knew and realized that a true Christian religion could not be based on lies and that true Christian leaders would not hide the truth from the membership.  I had prayed and had a very distinct answer given to my prayers.  The church was not true.  There was no stupor of thought.  No darkness. I was at peace and knew that the church was not true.

I had a revelatory experience that was greater, that trumped anything I had ever had before.  Now I expect you will say that it was Satan deceiving me.  But this experience had more of what I was taught was contact by the Holy Ghost than I had ever had before.   Why does a True Believing Mormon’s testimony trump mine?

 

 

Conclusion

1. I've had spiritual witnesses that my church is true.
2. Since my church is true, all other spiritual experiences that confirm that other churches are true must be wrong.

 

 

 

 

Other spiritual witnesses.

 

Many faithful LDS have a tendency to turn almost any situation into a spiritual one.  If their car breaks down on the way to the temple it shows that the Church is true because Satan was trying to thwart their efforts but if it ends up being a smooth trip it shows the truthfulness of the Church as God helped them get to the temple.  If Church membership starts to shrink this shows that the Church is true because Satan is working against it but if Church membership is growing then the Church is true because people are accepting God’s true word, etc.

 

 

Encounter with Satan

Account from an LDS member:

 

As a teenager I was terrified of going to bed. One night I had an encounter with Satan. I "wrestled" with Satan and commanded him to leave. I was not asleep. I can remember the touch of the bed, the twist of the sheets, and Satan sitting behind my pillow near the headboard. After Satan kindly left, I got up, turned on the lights, and prayed myself back to sleep.

 

A few days later I told my dad about my experience and he reassured me that it was real. I took all of this as a sign of my own importance. Being visited by Satan had some serious street cred in my Utah Mormon community. During a seminary testimony meeting, I got up and told the story of my demonic visitation. All the other kids were impressed. I must have a great role in the "last days" for Satan to make a personal appearance, right? Satan wanted me. It was a bizarre way of feeling special.

 

But at night, feeling special wasn't worth the price of going to bed deeply frightened. I prayed and prayed that God would save me, but the demonic visitations continued. Once, I saw a shadowy figure crouched near my bed. Another time I saw a dark presence surge towards me. My only consolation was that occasionally I would wake up and see fuzzy globs of light floating above me. Angels, I figured. Angels who were protecting me, who were blessing me, who were cleansing my bedroom.

 

After years of believing, the visions and visitations began to change. I began hallucinating all sorts of weird things. Once, I saw a giant grasshopper dancing near my bedside. Another time I saw a robot sitting on a chair. I saw gummy bears and headless children and preternatural spiders. And even more significant than the encounters themselves was the profound sense of meaningfulness attached to each episode. Yet when I was lucid, I couldn't recall any particular significance. How did these visions fit into my Mormon belief system? What does it mean, God?!

 

When I realized that I had a sleep disorder -- hypnagogic dreams with a side of night terrors-- so much of my life finally  made sense! I woke up and hallucinated because my brain was still in dream mode. If I had been someone else I might have assumed that I had been abducted by aliens, but since I was a young Mormon girl everything naturally converted into a Mormon spiritual context. And sometimes I worry that if I hadn't ever hallucinated the cartoonish and the chimerical, would I still be getting up and bearing my testimony about my one-on-one with Satan? Now, that's a scary thought.

 

Learning about my hypnagogic state has not made the hallucinations go away, but it has released me from the superstitious notion that God and the devil are involved. Recently I had a night terror where there was a pop-up turkey timer on my pillow. Call me crazy, but I don't think that it was inspired by God. Now I can wake up with a night terror, see a demonic red hand holding my own, shake my head a few times, roll over and go back to sleep. No big deal. It's a trick of the brain.

 

Lynne

 

Critic’s point: Other than being deceived herself, Lynne recounted this experience to many audiences as a real ‘spiritual’ encounter with the other side.  So anyone that first heard the story believed it as a real event whereas she admitted later that she was deceived by a psychological phenomenon.  And the people that heard her ‘testimony’ of seeing demonic beings probably passed these false stories on to other people that would believe them as well.

 

 

Act of God or coincidence

Account from a former LDS member:

 

A little background: We recently took a trip to Hawaii, and because I do mostly contract work, I don't receive holiday pay. That's fine, I make up for it with a higher hourly rate, but it can be a nuisance to have an irregularity in your monthly income.

Within a week from returning home, we get a refund check from our homeowners insurance for almost the exact amount of money that I forfeited by going on vacation. We had no idea about the refund and we were surprised, pleasantly, by the money. All of this in spite of the fact that I didn't get on my knees and pray for the lord to assist us with our finances, nor have I paid any tithing in the past 10 years, so it cannot be attributed to the blessings of tithing.

This is not the first time this has happened. My wife reminded me of the first trip that we took together when we were dating. Both of us were just starting out in our careers, we were at the bottom of the salary ladder and therefore every penny counted. Undoubtedly, I went over budget during the trip and lamented the fact that I might have to ask my active LDS mom to float me financially until payday. The day I arrived home from our trip, I found a check in the mail from the electric company for a refund of a few hundred dollars, thus saving me from having to ask someone for assistance. Again, all of this without praying for help or paying tithing.

My point is that there are many occurrences in my life that I regard as coincidence or random. If these same things had happened to a true-believing-member of the LDS Church, they would undoubtedly be spouting off about the blessings of paying tithing or the truthfulness of answered prayer. LDS often bend over backwards to make every good thing in their life a sign of God, and every bad thing in their life a sign of Satan. They never stop to think that maybe there are no signs or that maybe there is such a thing as coincidence.

 

When things work out well for THEM, it is because they paid their tithing, prayed to God, heeded counsel of General Authorities - or were otherwise "righteous" as defined by the Church. When things work out well for ME (evil atheist) it is just a coincidence.

 

 

Spiritual Experience from an RLDS (Community of Christ) member. 

Link:  http://www.mormonthink.com/rldstestimony.htm

Comment:  I have asked Terry about his experience many times.  He definitely believes it was a real event.  I can only say that if I had this kind of vision while at the pulpit of the RLDS Church, I would likely firmly believe that the RLDS Church was true.

 

 

Our thoughts:  We personally have noticed many people in our wards and within our families that claim the ‘spirit’ helped them with everything from finding car keys to saving their life.  The vast majority of these are not truly that phenomenal of events and completely explainable.  They only attribute them as a ‘spiritual’ experience because they are LDS.  We just have to wonder if that’s really the case then why God would help some LDS kid find a lost toy and ignore the thousands of people starving to death or dying from diseases in third-world countries?

 

 

 

 

What about spiritual witnesses that defy explanation?

 

Although the vast majority of spiritual