What most Latter-day Saints have been taught in
church and believe as truth.
Significant details & problems that most
Latter-day Saints probably have not thought about.
What is considered doctrine
and what is just a prophet’s opinion?
Can revelations come from the
Devil?
Strange statements made by the prophets?
Public interviews with the current prophet.
Apostle admits the Church sometimes teaches false
doctrine.
A current prophet should be
listened to over a dead prophet.
The danger of having a prophet.
If we think the prophet is wrong can we challenge
him?
Perhaps the biggest error made
by the prophets.
Responses
to these issues by faithful Latter-day Saints.
Links
What most Latter-day Saints have been
taught in church and believe as truth.
One of the great benefits of our religion is that we have an actual modern-day prophet that leads our church. We sustain the current prophet twice a year at general conference specifically as a prophet, seer and revelator. Although the prophets are men and make mistakes like anyone else, they do not err when conveying God’s will to the church. They serve as God’s mouthpiece on important issues and can be called upon at any time to reveal God’s will to man.
Here’s a sample of quotes from apostles many decades after Joseph died regarding the seer portion of the prophet’s calling:
In 1878 Orson Pratt had seen fit to challenge the world on this
subject, declaring in one of his sermons: "Have any of the other
denominations got this gift among them? Go and inquire through all of
Christendom . . . 'Can you translate ancient records written in a language that
is lost to the knowledge of man?' No . . . the universal reply of the Christian
denominations, numbering some 400,000,000, would be that they have not the
power to do it . . . you must give us credit," he had chided, "of at
least professing to have these great and important gifts."
Nor was Apostle Pratt's point taken lightly by others in the Church; several decades later another Apostle, John A. Widtsoe, pointedly explained that if "records appear needing translation, the President of the Church may at any time be called, through revelation, to the special labor of translation."
________________________________________________________________________
Significant details & problems that
most Latter-day Saints probably have not thought about.
No prophet since Joseph Smith has really prophesied, acted as a seer or provided any real revelation except undoing what Joseph Smith had done such as ending polygamy or allowing black men to have the priesthood. If we as Latter-day Saints believe that Joseph Smith restored the gospel and was indeed the first prophet of the restoration, then why hasn’t any prophet since then exhibited the same prophetic gifts that Joseph appeared to have?
Joseph Smith claimed to translate and bring forth many scriptures using his prophetic abilities as a seer. These include the Book of Mormon, Book of Abraham and the inspired version of the Holy Bible. Why haven’t the prophets that followed Joseph performed any prophetic duties as seer for the church?
Faithful LDS member response.
Joseph translated all the important documents that needed translating brought forth before him. There is nothing left in modern times to translate. If there were documents that God wanted translated he would have the current prophet translate them just as Orson Pratt stated.
Critic’s response.
There are numerous documents that could be translated by modern prophets and provide value to Latter-day Saints, just as the other additional scriptures brought forth by Joseph have. A few immediately come to mind:
The
One of the
most exciting religious discoveries of the 20th century has been the
discovery of the
Anthon
Manuscript
The
The characters on the so-called ‘Anthon Document’ match the characters on early 1840s placards promoting the Book of Mormon and also on the front and back covers of the 1980 edition of the Book of Mormon. This document may not be the original document taken to Professor Anthon, but the characters likely are as they are the same characters used on the covers of the published 1980 edition of the BOM.
If a modern-day prophet could translate these characters and show that this was part of the Book of Mormon then this would add credibility to Joseph’s ability as seer. Modern linguists have looked at the characters and said they are gibberish but what does our modern-day seer say?
The Kinderhook Plates
For many years LDS scholars debated whether or not the Kinderhook Plates reportedly translated by Joseph were actually real ancient plates or not? The pictures of the plates with the detailed writings were published in the Church-owned Times and Seasons newspaper when Joseph lived, as well as being published in the book History of the Church by Joseph Smith. Any prophet with the seer ability from Brigham Young to our current prophet could have used the pictures of the plates and translated the writings to verify what Joseph said about them as well as to finish the translation.
This would have ended the debate as to what the Kinderhook Plates were. If they were not real plates, they could have determined that also and said as such. If they were real, they could have provided the Saints with additional scripture or at least silence the critics.
The Book of Abraham
The Egyptian papyri found in the Metropolitan Museum of New York in 1966, including facsimile 1 of the Book of Abraham, were given to the church in 1967. Many people have asked why the translation of the papyri by modern-day Egyptologists do not match what Joseph said they mean. Why does our prophet not use his ordained seer ability to translate these documents in the same way Joseph did and see what they mean and why? This way the prophets could answer with surety the many troubling questions by members such as BOA translation problems. Many people have understandably left the church over the BOA. Would this not be a good use of the prophet’s seer ability by helping keep members from leaving the church?
Instead of using our prophet’s ability as seer, the church has given the papyri to LDS scholars to study. Why would they do this unless the prophets are not really seers as we sustain them to be twice each year?
The Book of Joseph
The Egyptian papyri Joseph had also contained the Book of Joseph, which Joseph never translated. The papyri found in the Metropolitan Museum of New York included some of the Book of Joseph as described by Oliver Cowdery. Why doesn’t the prophet translate the Book of Joseph portion?
The Inspired Version of the Holy Bible
Joseph began translating the inspired version of the Bible. Our current LDS versions of the Bible contain footnotes where Joseph had corrected the translation errors made when the Bible was translated over the years, as well as an entire chapter of Matthew. Joseph apparently never finished the work. Why didn’t the next prophet, or any subsequent prophet, finish the inspired version of the Bible that the church thought was so important that they altered our version of the King James Bible to include the portions that Joseph did retranslate?
Does it make any sense that the inspired version of the Bible should not be finished merely with the death of the first prophet of the restoration? If we really did have a succession of prophets since Joseph Smith, this important work would have been finished and published as God commanded Joseph to do.
Per Gordon B. Hinckley [emphasis added]:
"One of the purposes of a prophet is to seek the wisdom
and the will of the Lord and to teach his people accordingly. It was the case with Moses when he led the
children of
(1996 General Conference http://www.lightplanet.com/mormons/conferences/96_oct/Hinckley_Corner.htm)
Critic’s point: If the purpose of a prophet is to give
answers to people for the dilemmas in which they find themselves, then why
doesn’t the prophet inquire of the Lord and give the members clear answers as
to the many dilemmas that currently face thousands of Latter-day Saints such
as:
1) Why doesn’t Joseph’s
translation of the Book of Abraham papyri and facsimiles agree with what
Egyptologists say they mean?
2) Why were blacks denied
the priesthood until 1978?
3) Why did Joseph marry 11
men’s wives while they were still married to their husbands?
4) Why did Joseph give a
translation of the fake Kinderhook Plates?
5) Why does DNA analysis
show that the Native American Indians came from Asia and not
etc., etc., etc.
Many
thousands of people understandably leave the Church because they cannot get
official, plausible answers from their leaders to these troubling questions and
many more difficult dilemmas that trouble them deeply. The prophet could do tremendous good in the
lives of these thousands of people and their families if he would just give
them the answers they seek. The only
reason to not give them these answers is if they don’t know the answers. If they can’t get these answers as prophets then
how are they to fulfill GBH’s statement that the purpose of a prophet is to
give answers to people for the dilemmas in which they find themselves?
What is
considered doctrine and what is just a prophet’s opinion?
There is some debate within the Church as to what is considered official doctrine and what is just a man’s opinion.
Brigham Young said "I have never yet preached a sermon and sent it out to the children of men, that they may not call Scripture" (Journal of Discourses, vol. 13, p. 95)
Thus saith the Lord
Some members say that it’s not an official revelation unless the prophet ends it with the phrase “thus saith the Lord”. The very last President of the Church to prophesy or revelate "Thus Saith the Lord" Revelations was Wilford Woodruff (4th President of the Church). Presidents of the Church since his time have not prophesied, seen visions (save a dream by Joseph F. Smith in 1916), nor received any "Thus Saith the Lord Revelations".
For those who believe this, then what value are the prophets
to the
The Four Standard Works
Some members believe that if it is not in the four standard works then it is not considered official.
It makes no difference what is written
or what anyone has said, if what has been said is in conflict with what the
Lord has revealed, we can set it aside. My words, and the teachings of any
other member of the Church, high or low, if they do not square with the
revelations, we need not accept them. Let us have this matter clear. We have
accepted the four standard works as the measuring yardsticks, or balances, by
which we measure every man's doctrine.
(Doctrines of Salvation, Vol.3,
pp.203-04).
Using only the Four Standard Works as doctrine leads to the following logical argument: If a modern day prophet reveals something that isn't covered in the four standard works can we then reject it? So what's the point of having a living prophet? What is the value of modern-day prophets since they almost never add to those four scriptures?
The Ensign
Most members believe that anything published in The Ensign is considered scripture
although some believe that just what is in the ‘First Presidency Message’ of The Ensign should be considered scripture.
Often LDS apologists pick and choose what they consider to be doctrine. If it’s a touchy subject such as racist comments made by past prophets, prophecies that didn’t come true or teachings from prophets such as the ‘Adam-God’ sermons of Brigham Young, LDS apologists say that was merely a man’s opinion and not really God speaking through his appointed mouthpiece.
If that’s the case then how do you know if a prophet is speaking doctrine or merely giving his opinion? If the apologists are right then why bother reading The Ensign or why take General Conference seriously if it's just the opinions of individual men?
D&C 1: 38
"What I the Lord have spoken, I have spoken, and I excuse not myself; and
though the heavens and the earth pass away, my word shall not pass away, but
shall all be fulfilled, whether by mine own voice or by the voice of my
servants, it is the same."
Other Church Publications
Many of the disconcerting comments made by the prophets have come from the Church publication called The Journal of Discourses. It’s often quoted in Church and even by LDS apologists. How much credence should we give to the JofD?
From journalofdiscourses.com:
The Journal of Discourses deservedly ranks as one of the standard works
of the Church, and every right-minded Saint will certainly welcome with joy
every number (issue) as it comes forth.
President George Q. Cannon, Journal of
Discourses, Preface, Vol.8.
Each successive Volume of these Discourses is a rich mine of wealth, containing
gems of great value, and the diligent seeker will find ample reward for his
labor. After the fathers and mothers of this generation have made them the
study of their lives their children’s children will find that they are still
unexhausted, and rejoice that this Record has been handed down from their
fathers to also aid them in following the way of life.
Apostle Orson Pratt, Preface. Volume 3.
It is impossible to give monetary value to the past volumes of this
publication, ... Those who read the utterances of the servants of God,
contained in this book, under the same influence by which the speakers were
inspired, cannot fail to receive profit from the perusal.
President Joseph F. Smith, Preface, Vol.18.
We take great pleasure in presenting to the Saints and the world the ... the
JOURNAL OF DISCOURSES, which they will find contains rich treasures of
information concerning the glorious principles of Eternal Life, as revealed through God’s anointed
servants in these last days. All who read the discourses contained in this Volume
are earnestly recommended to adapt them to their lives by practice, and we can
confidently assure them that, in doing so, they are laying up a store of
knowledge that will save and exalt them in the Celestial kingdom.
Apostle Albert Carrington, Journal of
Discourses, Preface, Vol. 15.
The Church has recently issued the following statement on their website: ‘The Journal of Discourses is not an official publication of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. It is a compilation of sermons and other materials from the early years of the Church, which were transcribed and then published. It includes practical advice as well as doctrinal discussion, some of which is speculative in nature and some of which is only of historical interest.’
Critic’s point: Some LDS apologists try to wiggle out with "it's not doctrine", but even they admit it's a long-running series of public transcriptions of sermons by the highest Mormon leaders. If even that's not doctrine, then everything they make you sit through on Sundays must be utterly meaningless.
The Journal of Discourses is available online: http://www.journalofdiscourses.org/
The Church’s
website
Approaching Mormon Doctrine
4 May 2007 Much misunderstanding about
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints revolves around its doctrine.
The news media is increasingly asking what distinguishes the Church from other
faiths, and reporters like to contrast one set of beliefs with another.
The Church welcomes inquisitiveness,
but the challenge of understanding Mormon doctrine is not merely a matter of
accessing the abundant information available. Rather, it is a matter of how
this information is approached and examined.
The doctrinal tenets of any religion
are best understood within a broad context (see here
and here),
and thoughtful analysis is required to understand them. News reporters pressed
by daily deadlines often find that problematic. Therefore, as the Church
continues to grow throughout the world and receive increasing media attention,
a few simple principles that facilitate a better understanding may be helpful:
·
Not every statement made
by a Church leader, past or present, necessarily constitutes doctrine. A single
statement made by a single leader on a single occasion often represents a
personal, though well-considered, opinion, but is not meant to be officially
binding for the whole Church. With divine inspiration, the First
Presidency (the prophet and his two counselors) and the Quorum
of the Twelve Apostles (the second-highest governing body of the Church)
counsel together to establish doctrine that is consistently proclaimed in
official Church publications. This doctrine resides in the four “standard
works” of scripture (the Holy
Bible, the Book
of Mormon, the Doctrine
and Covenants and the Pearl
of Great Price), official declarations and proclamations, and the Articles of Faith. Isolated
statements are often taken out of context, leaving their original meaning
distorted.
·
Some doctrines are more
important than others and might be considered core doctrines. For example, the
precise location of the Garden of Eden is far less important than doctrine
about Jesus
Christ and His atoning sacrifice. The mistake that public commentators
often make is taking an obscure teaching that is peripheral to the Church’s
purpose and placing it at the very center. This is especially common among
reporters or researchers who rely on how other Christians interpret Latter-day
Saint doctrine.
Based on the scriptures, Joseph
Smith declared: “The fundamental principles of our religion are the
testimony of the Apostles and Prophets, concerning Jesus Christ, that He died,
was buried, and rose again the third day, and ascended into heaven; and all
other things which pertain to our religion are only appendages to it.”
·
Because different times
present different challenges, modern-day
prophets receive revelation relevant to the circumstances of their day.
This follows the biblical
pattern (Amos 3:7),
in which God communicated messages and warnings to His people through prophets
in order to secure their well-being. In our day, President Gordon
B. Hinckley has repeatedly emphasized the importance of the family
in our increasingly fractional society. In addition, the Church does not
preclude future additions or changes to its teachings or practices. This
living, dynamic aspect of the Church provides flexibility in meeting those
challenges. According to the Articles of Faith, “We believe all that God
has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet
reveal many great and important things pertaining to the
·
Latter-day Saints place
heavy emphasis on the application of their faith in daily life. For example,
the active participation of Latter-day Saints in their community and worldwide humanitarian
programs reflects concern for other people. As Jesus Christ declared, “By their fruits ye shall
know them.”
·
Individual members are
encouraged to independently strive to receive their own spiritual confirmation
of the truthfulness of Church doctrine. Moreover, the Church exhorts all people
to approach the gospel not only intellectually but with the intellect and the
spirit, a process in which reason and faith work together.
·
Those writing or
commenting on Latter-day Saint doctrine also need to understand that certain
words in the Mormon
vocabulary have slightly different meanings and connotations than those
same words have in other religions. For example, Latter-day Saints generally
view being born again as a process of conversion, whereas many
other Christian denominations often view it as a conversion that happens in one
defining moment. Sometimes what some may consider an argument or dispute
over doctrine is really a misunderstanding of simple differences in
terminology.
Journalists, academics and laymen
alike are encouraged
to pursue their inquiries into the Church by recognizing the broad and complex
context within which its doctrines have been declared, in a spirit of reason
and good will.
Reference
Our comment: That article on the Church’s official website certainly makes it crystal clear what exactly constitutes Church doctrine – clear as mud!
Can
revelations come from the Devil?
Joseph Smith said "Some revelations are of God: some revelations are of man: and some revelations are of the devil."
From David Whitmer, An
Address to All Believers in Christ, p.30 - p.31 [It will be on slightly
different pages in different editions of Whitmer's pamphlet.]
We were waiting on Martin Harris who was doing his best to
sell a part of his farm, in order to raise the necessary funds. After a time
Hyrum Smith and others began to get impatient, thinking that Martin Harris was
too slow and under transgression for not selling his land at once, even if at a
great sacrifice. Brother Hyrum thought they should not wait any longer on
Martin Harris, and that the money should be raised in some other way. Brother
Hyrum was vexed with Brother Martin, and thought they should get the money by
some means outside of him, and not let him have anything to do with the
publication of the Book, or receiving any of the profits thereof if any profits
should accrue. He was wrong in thus judging Bro. Martin, because he was doing
all he could toward selling his land. Brother Hyrum said it had been suggested
to him that some of the brethren might go to
In discussing the "Canadian Copyright Caper" B. H. Roberts quotes
this entire passage in Comprehensive History of the Church Vol. 1 pp. 162-66
So just how do we
know what revelations are from God, from the devil or from the heart of man if
even the Prophet Joseph Smith couldn’t tell?
The Greek Psalter
Incident
Professor Henry Caswell, gave Joseph
Smith a Greek Psalter to examine and asked him what it was. Joseph of course would know this as he
reportedly translated the Book of Mormon from Reformed Egyptian and he
translated the Book of Abraham from Egyptian papyri.
Joseph replied that it was a Dictionary
of Ancient Egyptian Hieroglyphics.
Professor Caswell of course knew Joseph was wrong as this was a known Greek
Psalter and definitely not Egyptian.
Reference: http://www.sidneyrigdon.com/dbroadhu/IL/sign1843.htm scroll to near the bottom for section called ‘THE MORMON PROPHET AND THE GREEK PSALTER.’
Caswell told this incident to Mormon apostle Dr. William Richards who said “Sometimes Mr. Smith speaks as mere man. If he gave a wrong opinion respecting the book, he spoke as a mere man.”
Now assuming this was actual event as reported in the newspapers at the time, should this be considered a prophetic statement or just Joseph’s opinion?
It’s very convenient to say Joseph speaks as a man whenever he’s proved wrong and a prophet whenever his statements haven’t been proven one way or the other yet.
There are of course many prophecies of Joseph Smith that did not come true: http://utlm.org/onlineresources/falseprophecies.htm
How do we know when to believe a prophet?
References
An Insider’s View of Mormon Origins, Grant Palmer pp. 35-36.
http://www.mormonthink.com/greekweb.htm
Strange statements made by the prophets?
In order to show that these men were very human, here are a few quotes to consider from the modern-day prophets [emphasis added]:
Brigham Young
Adam is God Quotes
How much unbelief exists in the minds of
Latter-day Saints in regard to one particular doctrine which I revealed to
them, and which God revealed to me - namely that Adam is our father and God
..Then he said, 'I want my children who are in the spirit world to come and
live here. I once dwelt upon an earth something like this, in a mortal state. I
was faithful. I received my crown and exaltation...I want my children that
were born to me in the spirit world to come here and take tabernacles of
flesh that their spirits may have a house, a tabernacle...' (Brigham Young, Deseret Weekly News, June 18, 1873, page
308; Deseret Evening News, June 14,
1873)
Who was the Savior begotten by?....Who did beget him? His Father, and his father is our God,
and the Father of our spirits, and he is the framer of the body, the God and
Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. Who is he? He is Father Adam; Michael; the
Ancient of Days. (President Brigham Young, Feb. 19, 1854, Brigham Young
Collection, LDS Archives; ; Brigham Young
Addresses, 1850-1854, Vol. 2, by Elden J. Watson, sheet 179 (in
chronological order), Historical Dept. Church, Ms d 1234, Box 48 Fd. 11; also
in Adam Is God???, pp. 9-10; Adam-God
Maze, p.101)
Some have grumbled because I believe our
God to be so near to us as Father Adam. There are many who know that
doctrine to be true. (Brigham Young, October 7, 1857, Journal of Discourses 5:331).
Some years ago I advanced a doctrine
with regard to Adam being our Father and God...It is one of the most
glorious revealments of the economy of heaven... (President Brigham Young, in
the Tabernacle, General Conference, October 8, 1861, 10:30 a.m.; Brigham Young
Addresses, 1860-1864, Vol. 4, by Elden J. Watson, sheet 134 (in chronological
order), Historical Dept. Church, Ms d 1234, Box 49 fd 8)
I tell you more: Adam is the father of
our spirits. He lived upon an earth, he did abide his creation and did
honor to his calling and priesthood and obeyed his master or lord, and probably
many of his wives did the same, and they lived and died upon an earth and then were
resurrected again to immortality and eternal life. (Brigham Young, October
8, 1854, Brigham Young Addresses, 18509-1854, Vol. 2, by Elden J. Watson, sheet
221 (in chronological order), Historical Dept. Church, Box 49 fd 12)
"Brigham Young
said if you went to Heaven and saw God it would be Adam and Eve. I don't know
what he meant by that." Pointing to a grim-faced portrait of the Lion of
the Lord, as Young was called,
- Hinckley Interview in Lives of the
Saint, New Yorker, January 2002
http://www.newyorker.com/PRINTABLE/?fact/020121fa_FACT1
Murder of Unfaithful Spouse is Justified
"Suppose you found your
brother in bed with your wife, and put a javelin through both of them, you
would be justified, and they would atone for their sins, and be received into
the
Racism
"Shall I tell you the law of God in regard to the African race? If the white man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the penalty, under the law of God, is death on the spot. This will always be so." (Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, Volume 10, page 110.)
You see some classes of the human family that are black, uncouth, un- comely, disagreeable and low in their habits, wild, and seemingly deprived of nearly all the blessings of the intelligence that is generally bestowed upon mankind. The first man that committed the odious crime of killing one of his brethren will be cursed the longest of any one of the children of Adam. Cain slew his brother. Cain might have been killed, and that would have put a termination to that line of human beings. This was not to be, and the Lord put a mark upon him, which is the flat nose and black skin. Trace mankind down to after the flood, and then another curse is pronounced upon the same race - that they should be the "servant of servants;" and they will be, until that curse is removed; and the Abolitionists cannot help it, nor in the least alter that decree. How long is that race to endure the dreadful curse that is upon them? That curse will remain upon them, [p.291] and they never can hold the Priesthood or share in it until all the other descendants of Adam have received the promises and enjoyed the blessings of the Priesthood and the keys thereof. Until the last ones of the residue of Adam's children are brought up to that favourable position, the children of Cain cannot receive the first ordinances of the Priesthood. They were the first that were cursed, and they will be the last from whom the curse will be removed. When the residue of the family of Adam come up and receive their blessings, then the curse will be removed from the seed of Cain, and they will receive blessings in like proportion. - (Journal of Discourses 7:290-291, October 9, 1859)
"You may inquire of the intelligent of the world whether they can tell why the aborigines of this country are dark, loathsome, ignorant, and sunken into the depths of degradation ...When the Lord has a people, he makes covenants with them and gives unto them promises: then, if they transgress his law, change his ordinances, and break his covenants he has made with them, he will put a mark upon them, as in the case of the Lamanites and other portions of the house of Israel; but by-and-by they will become a white and delightsome people" (Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses 7:336).
It is not the prerogative of the President of the
Utah will never be admitted to the Union if the church has to abandon polygamy
I heard the revelation on polygamy, and I believed it with all my heart,
and I know it is from God - I know that he revealed it from heaven; I know that
it is true, and understand the bearings of it and why it is. "Do you think
that we shall ever be admitted as a State into the Union
without denying the principle of polygamy?" If we are not admitted
until then, we shall never be admitted. - JofD 11:269
(Aug 19, 1866)
Science: Rock will decay; Gold and silver grow, same as hair
The elements of which this terra firma is composed, are every moment
either composing or decomposing. They commence to organize or to compose, and
continue to grow until they arrive at their zenith of perfection, and then they
begin to decompose. When you find a rock that has arrived at its greatest
perfection, you may know that the work of decaying has begun. Let the practical
chemist make his observations upon a portion of the matter of which this earth
is composed; and he will find, that just as quick as it is at its perfection,
that very instant it begins to decompose. ...
Gold and silver grow, and so does every other kind of metal,
the same as the hair upon my head, or the wheat in the field; they do not grow
as fast, but they are all the time composing or decomposing.
- JofD 1:219 (October 9, 1852)
Moon Men
Brigham Young's statement:
Oliver B. Huntington recorded in his diary:
"The inhabitants of the moon are more of a uniform size than the
inhabitants of the earth, being six feet in height. They dress very much
like the Quaker style and are quite general in style or fashion of
dress. They live to be very old; coming generally near a thousand years.
This is the description of them as given by Joseph [Smith] the Seer, and
he could see whatever he asked the Father in the name of Jesus to see" -
Journal of Oliver B. Huntington, Vol
2, p 166, emphasis added
Brigham Young:
"I will tell you who the
real fanatics are: they are they who adopt
false principles and ideas as facts, and try to establish a
superstructure upon, a false foundation. They are the fanatics; and
however ardent and zealous they may be, they may reason or argue on
false premises till doomsday, and the result will be false. If our
religion is of this character we want to know it; we would like to find
a philosopher who can prove it to us. We are called ignorant; so we are:
but what of it? Are not all ignorant? I rather think so. Who can tell us
of the inhabitants of this little planet that shines of an evening,
called the moon? When we view its face we may see what is termed "the
man in the moon," and what some philosophers declare are the shadows of
mountains. But these sayings are very vague, and amount to nothing; and
when you inquire about the inhabitants of that sphere you find that the
most learned are as ignorant in regard to them as the most ignorant of
their fellows. So it is with regard to
the inhabitants of the sun. Do
you think it is inhabited? I rather think it is. Do you think there is
any life there? No question of it; it was not made in vain. It was made
to give light to those who dwell upon it, and to other planets; and so
will this earth when it is celestialized. Every planet in its first
rude, organic state receives not the glory of God upon it, but is
opaque; but when celestialized, every planet that God brings into
existence is a body of light, but not till then. Christ is the light of
this planet." - Journal of
Discourses Vol. 13, p.271.
For more gems from Brigham Young: http://home.teleport.com/~packham/byoung.htm#NEGRO
References
http://www.frontiernet.net/~bcmmin/adamgod.htm
http://home.teleport.com/~packham/byoung.htm#NEGRO
http://www.exmormon.org/mormon/mormon008.htm
http://www.sunstoneonline.com/magazine/searchable/Issue35.asp
John Taylor, President
of the Church
“And after the flood we are told that the curse that had
been pronounced upon Cain was continued through Ham's wife, as he had married a
wife of that seed. And why did it pass through the flood? because it was
necessary that the devil should have a
representation upon the earth as well as God;...” Journal
of Discourses, Vol. 22, page 304
"...the one-wife
system not only degenerates the human family, both physically and
intellectually, but it is entirely incompatible with philosophical notions of
immortality; it is a lure to temptation, and has always proved a curse to a people."
Millennial Star, Vol. 15, p. 227
Wilford Woodruff,
4th President of the Church
During General Conference in April, 1898, he made this startling prophecy:
"Many sitting in the
congregation today will stand in the flesh when the Lord Jesus Christ visits
the Zion of God here in the mountains of
Of course everyone that was in that congregation in 1898 has
since perished w/o seeing Christ appear in the flesh to
President
Woodruff made another interesting statement in 1888; at the dedication of the
"We will not end the practice of plural marriage until the coming of the Son of Man". (Journal of John Henry Smith, 21 May 1888, LDS Church Archives)
Of course the
"And if any man mingle his
seed with the seed of Cain the only way he could get rid of it or have
Salvation would be to come forward and have his head cut off and spill his
blood upon the ground- it would also take the life of his children."
(Wilford Woodruff Journal)
Heber C. Kimball
"Wake Up, Ye Elders of
Israel, and live to God and none else; and learn to do as you are told, both
old and young: learn to do as you are told for the future. . . if you are told
by your leader to do a thing, do it. None of your business whether it is right
or wrong" Journal of Discourses,
Vol. 6, p. 32, November 8, 1852.
Perhaps that kind of thinking explains such travesties as the Mountain Meadows Massacre and such blind obedience to practicing polygamy and racism.
Joseph Fielding
Smith, 10th LDS President
"Not only was Cain called upon to suffer, but because
of his wickedness he became the father of an inferior race." (The
Way to Perfection, p.101.)
Spencer W.
Kimball, LDS President
"The day of the Lamanites in nigh. For years they have been growing delightsome. . . The children in the home placement program in Utah are often lighter than their brothers and sisters in the hogans on the reservation. . .There was the doctor in a Utah city who for two years had had an Indian boy in his home who stated that he was some shades lighter than the younger brother just coming into the program from the reservation. These young members of the Church are changing to whiteness and to delightsomeness. Spencer W. Kimball; The Improvement Era, Dec. 1960, p. 923)
Gordon B.
The Hofmann Forgeries
The Brethren (Church leaders)
claim to have "the Spirit of Discernment"; meaning if any tries to
deceive them or the Saints, they will immediately be detected and exposed
(Mormon Doctrine, p.197). On Oct. 15th, 1985, two pipe-bombs went off in
The bombings made national and international news. At first the bombings were blamed on an unknown "Mormon fanatic"; upset that Hofmann was "discovering" old Mormon documents embarrassing to the Church. But soon police knew that Hofmann was the bomber in all three bombings. The last bomb he had dropped while getting out of his car; seriously injuring him.
In April, 1980, Mark Hofmann started finding old Mormon documents. At first the documents confirmed LDS history, but soon his "finds" were making Joseph Smith appear to be a fraud and occultist. Hofmann was selling the most embarrassing documents directly (face-to-face) to President Gordon B. Hinckley; then acting President of the Church (all other members of the First Presidency were ill).
After police arrested Hofmann, Church leaders such as Hugh
Pinnock told police, "You have the wrong man...Hofmann is innocent!"
In 1987 Hofmann confessed to forging hundreds of documents and to murdering two
innocent people as a way to cover it up and lead police away from him. When it
was all over the New York Times reported that "the Church routinely
acquires and suppresses history documents in order to deceive its members and
the public." (Feb. 11, 1987). The story is told in The Mormon Murders and
A Gathering of Saints; both books still in most
Where was their Spirit of Discernment? Even the Tanners, which are considered some of the biggest enemies of the Church, said that the documents were likely fakes but the Church bought them anyway.
Some
LDS speculate that the Church bought them knowing that they were fakes but
better to keep them out of critic’s hands.
That makes no sense. It would have
been much more powerful for the
If they want to admit they made a mistake then fine but whenever someone tries to hide the truth there are always consequences to deception.
Even worse is when Apostle Dallin Oaks tries to validate that the document didn’t really alter the Church’s foundational claims by saying that the ‘salamander’ mentioned in Hofmann’s document could be interpreted as a ‘mythical being thought to be able to live in fire’ (even though Hofmann said he substituted the word salamander for toad from another early church document which clearly shows that the context of salamander was a small lizard and not some off-the-wall ‘mythical being’ obscure definition of the word salamander). Amazing that an apostle would bend over backwards to try to justify a document to prevent it from harming people’s testimonies – and then to find out that the document he was making excuses for was a complete forgery!
Reference:
http://www.utlm.org/onlinebooks/trackingconfessions2.htm
.
Other Leaders
The apostles, who are also considered to be General Authorities, have said many more disconcerting things. Here’s just one of the more respected general authorities - apostle Bruce R. McKonkie [emphasis added]:
"It is also to the Book of Mormon to which we turn for the plainest description of the Catholic Church as the great and abominable church. Nephi saw this ‘church which is the most abominable above all other churches' in vision. He ‘saw the devil that he was the foundation of it' and also the murders, wealth, harlotry, persecutions, and evil desires that historically have been a part of this satanic organization.(Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine [1958], 130.)
McKonkie also reiterated what Joseph Fielding Smith taught:
"Negroes in this life are denied the Priesthood; under no circumstances can they hold this delegation of authority from the Almighty. (Abra. 1:20-27.) The gospel message of salvation is not carried affirmatively to them... negroes are not equal with other races where the receipt of certain spiritual blessings are concerned, particularly the priesthood and the temple blessings that flow therefrom, but this inequality is not of man's origin. It is the Lord's doing, is based on his eternal laws of justice, and grows out of the lack of Spiritual valiance of those concerned in their first estate." (Mormon Doctrine, 1966, pp. 527-528)
As we understand it the President of the Church David O’McKay had the reference to the Catholic Church removed in later editions. The blacks references may have also been removed eventually but not until later. The edition we used had it. But for one of the Lord’s anointed to think that way and publish it in a very popular fundamental church book makes us wonder just how inspired our leaders are.
Public interviews with the current prophet.
Being a Prophet
Gordon B. Hinckley appeared on two nationally televised interviews and when asked if he was a prophet his answer was 'Well, I'm sustained as such’.
Critic’s point: What about a simple "yes" or "no"? To give a vague answer like that implies that everyone thinks he’s a prophet but maybe he doesn’t think so.
Men can become Gods
Excerpt from President Hinckley’s interview with Time:
Q: Just another related question that comes up is the statements in the King Follet discourse by the Prophet.
A: Yeah
Q: ... about that, God the Father was once a man as we were. This is something that Christian writers are always addressing. Is this the teaching of the church today, that God the Father was once a man like we are?
A: I don’t know that we teach it. I don’t know that we emphasize it. I haven’t heard it discussed for a long time in public discourse. I don’t know. I don’t know all the circumstances under which that statement was made. I understand the philosophical background behind it. But I don’t know a lot about it and I don’t know that others know a lot about it.
http://lds-mormon.com/gbh.shtml
Critic’s point: This doctrine has been clearly taught in the church since Joseph Smith’s time. Every member knows this.
"The doctrine that God was once a man and has progressed to become a God is unique to this church." (The Teachings of Brigham Young, 1997, p. 34).
Our Thoughts: Some of us think this is a defensible belief. We don’t know why GBH doesn’t just say Yes, we believe this and here’s why…the Bible says… To say otherwise confuses the members to the point that many people don’t know for sure what the doctrine is. The same dialogue said to the members should be the same dialogue said to the public so we don’t appear to be hiding anything.
Polygamy
From Larry King Live Interview:
Gordon B.
Critic’s point: Polygamy is clearly doctrinal and still
believed to be practiced in the next life.
Men who have had their wife die can be sealed to their second wife with
the belief that they will be married to both women (or more) in the next
life. Also the saints practiced it in
the 1800s when it was
illegal so why bother making a big deal about obeying the law now when the
Revelation
Gordon B.
DR: And this is a revelation?
Gordon B.
DR: How often have you received such revelations?
Gordon B.
DR: But it’s a special experience?
Gordon B.
The Ensign
"I hope that prayer will
take on a new luster in our lives. None
of us knows what lies ahead. We may speculate, but we do not know."
- Gordon B.
"Revelation no
longer comes by vision," Mr.
"We wrestle with a problem, we discuss it, we think about it, we pray
about it," he said... "And the answer comes in a remarkable and
wonderful way." (Washington Times,
Dec. 3, 1996, page A8)
Critic’s point: Like many things in the LDS church, it’s a lot less impressive the more you know about it
Apostle admits the
Church sometimes teaches false doctrine.
LDS Apostle Bruce R. McConkie admitted that Brigham Young was guilty of teaching things that were "out of harmony with the gospel" (p. 6). In fact, McConkie makes the amazing confession that "I do not know all of the providences of the Lord, but I do know that he permits false doctrine to be taught in and out of the Church and that such teaching is part of the sifting process of mortality" (p. 7).
Critic’s point: Such a statement should be disconcerting to the average Latter-day Saint who has heard his leaders time and time again insist that, "God will never allow the prophet of the church to lead the church astray." Since when has teaching false doctrine not been a method of leading people astray? And of course, how do we know which doctrines that have been taught by the Church are false and which are true?
Reference
http://www.mrm.org/multimedia/text/mcconkies-letter.html
A current
prophet should be listened to over a dead prophet.
The prophets since Joseph Smith have been wrong about important doctrinal and historical matters. Brigham Young was obviously incorrect when he taught that Adam was our God.
Early prophets of the restoration clearly believed and taught certain things but they were changed by later prophets when science proved the earlier prophets’